%%%%%%%% %%%%%%% %%%%%%% %% %% %%%%%%%% %% %% %% % %% %% %% % %%% %%% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% % % %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %%%% %% % %% %% %%%%% %% %% %% %%% %% %% %% %% %% %% % %% %% % %% %% %% %% %% %% %%%%%%%% %%%%%%% %%%%%% %% %% %%%%%%%% %% %% %%%%%%%% %%%%%%%% %%%%%%% %%%%%% %%%%%%%% %%%%%%% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% % %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %%%%%% %%% %% %%%%%% %% %%%% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %%% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% %% % %% %%%%%%%% %%%%%%%% %%%%%%% %% %% %%%%%%%% %%%%%% DECEMBER, 1996 (Issue # 19) - The Specialists - DJ Johnson.................Editor Jim Andrews................HTML Wayne Burke................HTML coLeSLaw...................Graphic Artist Lauren Marshall............Administrative Assistant Louise Johnson.............Administrative Assistant and Keeper Of The Debris - The Cosmik Writers - Jim Andrews, Ann Arbor, coLeSLAw, Robert Cummings, Shaun Dale, Phil Dirt, David Fenigsohn, Alex Gedeon, Keith Gillard, DJ Johnson, Steven Leith, Steve Marshall, The Platterpuss, Paul Remington, and John Sekerka. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S EDITOR'S NOTES: Introducing Ann Arbor, linking to a great new website, and listing the winners of last months CD drawings. A BRAND NEW DAY FOR CURTIS MAYFIELD: Six years after a freak accident made him a quadriplegic, soul legend Curtis Mayfield returns to the forefront of pop with an album filled with message and emotion. Curtis talks about the process of making that record, and about the music itself. Interview by DJ Johnson. A MODERN COLLABORATION - Vai meets Thome: In part two of our interview, Steve Vai and Joel Thome share their memories of Frank Zappa, and discuss his accomplishments, his influence, and what might have been. COSMIK DEBRIS MEETS DOWN BY LAW: Kicking back with John, Dave and Sam of Down By Law in a small and loud dressing room with cement-block walls... just about 20 feet from the stage, where another band was blasting away. If that isn't the perfect setting for interviewing a great punk band, we don't know what is. Interview by Shaun Dale (with DJ Johnson). LOS FANTASTICO, ASOMBROS, Y MUY MUY LOUD HUEVOS RANCHEROS: Brent Cooper, guitarist for Canada's hotter-than-sparklers trio, Huevos Rancheros, explains how they get their big sound, fesses up to why they named their band after an egg dish, and basically explains what the "10" is for on the volume knob. Interview by DJ Johnson. MAL SHARPE - THE WEIRDNESS CONTINUES: As half of Coyle and Sharpe, Mal Sharpe took the "man on the street interview" concept and turned it on its ear in the early 1960's. Today, he looks back at some of those hilarious "pranks" they played on unsuspecting pedestrians, and also discusses his new book, Weird Rooms. Interview by Ann Arbor. OUR FAVORITE THINGS: The staff of Cosmik Debris takes turns picking their five favorite recordings of 1996. THE 2ND ANNUAL COSMIK GUIDE TO HOLIDAY MUSIC: Steve Marshall serves up another big batch of recommendations (and a few warnings) to help you pick the right CDs for the holiday season. TAPE HISS (John Sekerka): This month, John talks to Melora (from Rasputina) and producer-musician-all around guy Skip Heller, who has a lot to say about his late friend, Les Baxter. RECORD REVIEWS: Jazz n punk n rock n roll! And classical, surf, garage, exotica, African, Brazilian, pop, electronic... All that and more. BETWEEN ZERO & ONE (Steven Leith): What does it take to win an election? Steve knows. PHIL'S GARAGE (Phil Dirt): A non-poem from Mr. Dirt for the holidays. STUFF I NOTICED (DJ Johnson): Plots, lies, and cowpies. Blend well, serve tepid. THE DEBRIS FIELD (Louise Johnson) Louise has gathered up some great debris this month: movie, book and concert reviews, poems, quotes, cartoons, and the gross disgusting recipe of the month! OUR LAST KNOWN WHEREABOUTS: This baby is directly linked to the FBDBS' (Federal Bureau of Deviant Behavior Studies) mainframe computer. They have ALL of our e-mail addresses. We saw yours there, too! If you want to contact us, this is where to look first. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDITOR'S NOTES By DJ Johnson Happy holidays, everybody. Welcome to the 19th issue of Cosmik Debris. We're very excited to introduce our latest writer: Ann Arbor is a disc jockey at KFJC FM in Los Altos, California (Phil Dirt's station!) Ann interviewed me on the air a few months back, and we've kept in touch through e-mail ever since. Be sure to check out her first contribution: "Mal Sharpe...The Weirdness Continues." It's one of the most entertaining interviews I've read in years. We also have some news about one of our FORMER writers. Cai Campbell has opened his new zine/cultural hangout/cool stuff website to the public. Among the attractions, you'll find an archive of record reviews (many of them from Cosmik Debris), and an interactive Desert Island Discs area where you fill out a form with the ten records, CDs or tapes that you would take to a desert island. You can see submit a new list every time your mood changes, and you can also get a look at what music OTHER people just couldn't go on living without. The website is named after Cai's late lamented BBS system, The Great Gig In The Sky. He's making it very interactive, so even though it's just in the beginning phases of construction, he invites you all to come help shape it. You can submit reviews, articles, top-10 lists, art... all kinds of things. The aim is to try to create a feeling of interactive community similar to what we all experienced on his BBS for over a decade, and if anyone can do it, it's Cai. So drop on by http://www.greatgig.com and have some fun, make some suggestions, and be sure to take a look at the review archive! It's going to be quite a resource. Time to name the winners of the two drawings held on the 30th of November. The five winners of Storyville's new CD, A Piece Of Your Soul, are Timothy Hillman (Burnaby, BC, Canada), Ted James (Austin, Texas, USA), Shawn Stackhouse (Nepean, Ontario, Canada), Darren Browett (Maple Ridge, BC, Canada) and Nick Rockwell (Carmel, Indiana, USA). So for those keeping track, the final score there was Canada-3 USA-2. The five winners of Steve Vai's new CD, Fire Garden, are Simon Buck (Kingston, Ontario, Canada), Martin Foubert (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada), Lee Holden (Shelburne, Vermont, USA), David Mendelson (Huntington Woods, Michigan, USA), and Steve Bogucki (Parkton, Maryland, USA). So the USA and Canada split the double header and it's a North American sweep. Considering we had entries from all over the world, that's quite a feat. We'd like to thank all of you for entering, and we'd also like to thank Epic Records (Vai) and Code Blue/Atlantic Records (Storyville) for providing the CDs. That's about it. Make sure you set aside extra time for digging into Cosmik this month, because we have seven interviews and over 50 record reviews, plus articles, columns, and the ever-explanding Debris Field, where you'll find three different kinds of reviews this month: concert, book, and movie. Enjoy the show! DJ Johnson Editor --------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Brand New Day For CURTIS MAYFIELD Interviewed by DJ Johnson "Darkness no longer - a child is born - Mother sheds tears of joy as baby tests his lungs - My daddy's not there where he ought to be - Somewhere in Georgia skinning and shooting craps on his knees." With these words, Curtis Mayfield breaks his six year silence following the tragic accident that left him a quadriplegic. Beloved by millions, Curtis' voice had for decades been one of hope, peace, empowerment and love. His effect on listeners transcended the typical fan-star relationship. To those who listened closely, Curtis was a personal friend: one that cared deeply and always had words of encouragement. To the poor--both black and white--he was the voice of hope and self-respect. There were precious few performers who could generate an outpouring of emotion such as that which greeted Curtis after the accident. Tribute albums were recorded featuring artists, outstanding in their own rights, who had been influenced by his music, his message, and his integrity. Born in Chicago, Illinois on June 3rd, 1942, Curtis was raised in the Cabrini-Green projects on Chicago's north side. Surrounded by the characters and situations that would later populate his lyrics, he was lucky enough to also be surrounded by music, thanks to his mother, his grandmother, and three of his cousins who performed in The New Jubilee Gospel Singers. The quartet also featured Jerry Butler, who would feature quite prominently in Curtis' life. The New Jubilee Gospel Singers were an important part of the Traveling Soul Spiritualist Church, which Curtis would attend with his grandmother. The beautiful gospel music he heard in that church influenced many of his greatest songs. Curtis' talent for lyricism was nurtured by his mother, who read poetry to him from a very early age. This, too, was absorbed by the young man who would later write such meaningful songs as "Beautiful Brother Of Mine," and "We People Who Are Darker Than Blue," blending his gospel and poetic influences with the strong social consciousness that years of exposure to injustice had instilled in him. After developing his guitar chops and songwriting skills in a few local bands, Curtis was invited to join Jerry Butler's group, The Impressions. Originally a doo wop group called The Roosters, they had gone through a few lineup and stylistic changes by the time Curtis came aboard. Not long after they began, Butler jumped ship for a solo career. The Impressions almost didn't get off the ground, and were in fact dropped from VeeJay Records in 1959. Curtis went to work as a guitarist in Butler's backing band, and he eventually took the money he earned there and went to New York, with the other Impressions in tow, to record one of his newest songs. "Gypsy Woman" not only got the group a recording contract with ABC Records, it also reached #20 on the pop charts in 1961. At that time, The Impressions were a quintet. By 1962, they were a trio, consisting of Samuel Gooden, Fred Cash and Curtis Mayfield. With this lineup, The Impressions would become one of the premier soul groups of the 1960's, recording 12 albums and hitting the charts again and again until 1969. In 1970, Curtis released his self-titled debut solo album, which reached #19 on the LP charts and produced a devastating single, "(Don't Worry) If There's A Hell Below We're All Going To Go." The track opened with the voice of a woman claiming all the answers to the riddles of life are in the Book Of Revelations. A firestorm of distorted bass and chopping wah-wah guitar surrounding Curtis' voice as he shouted "Sisters! Niggers! Whiteys! Jews! Crackers! Don't worry. If there's hell below, we're ALL gonna go!" An amazing thing happened: Despite the obvious cold shoulder the song received from radio programmers everywhere, it reached #29 on the pop charts and #3 on the R&B charts. The news was out. Curtis Mayfield didn't need the support of the establishment. His fans were everywhere. Over the next three years, Curtis made some of the most popular records in the business, including his classic 1972 soundtrack, Superfly. The title track and "Freddie's Dead" both cracked the top ten, and the album itself became his one and only #1, selling well over a million copies (and still selling very well today in CD format). FM radio stations, still very much underground in the early part of the 70's, began picking up on album tracks like "Pusherman," from Superfly, and "Beautiful Brother Of Mine," from the 1971 album, Roots. The dark grooves and powerful bass lines, along with the strong social commentary, reached out to new fans who began snapping up his previous albums. Curtis Live became one of the hippest things to have in your record collection. Times were good. After the chart-topping success of Superfly, there was nowhere to go but down--at least as far as quantitative success is concerned--so when Back To The World came in at #16 on the LP charts, number crunchers predicted the worst. Indeed, chart success became more and more elusive for Curtis after Superfly, and though he recorded some of his most beautiful music in the years that followed that album, the mass-market listener was on to the new flavor of the day. Curtis continued to record, and to chart sporadically (though he always remained a familiar presence on the R&B charts). In the late 70's, he bowed to the pressure and made a disco record that satisfied no one, including himself. He recorded less often, due to other pressures of the music business and general bad luck, such as the demise of his Curtom record label. Between 1982 and 1990, Curtis released only three albums. In 1990, he worked on the soundtrack to The Return Of Superfly, contributing five tracks--including an update of "Superfly," on which he collaborated with rapper Ice-T. This often overlooked soundtrack contained a new Mayfield sound and an interesting suggestion of what the 90's might bring. But on August 14th, 1990, everything changed. Performing on an outdoor stage in Brooklyn, New York, a gust of wind caused a lighting rig to come loose and crash to the stage, striking Curtis and breaking his neck, destroying his diaphragm, and leaving him a quadriplegic. Six hard years have passed--years that have included many surgeries and obstacles. Curtis' faith, still strong after all these years, seems to have served him well. Anything but bitter, he seems interested only in moving on. In a recent interview with USA Today, Curtis said "I'm not going to burden myself with 'why me?' Hell, it could happen to anybody. So how can I be mad? And mad at what?" With this healthy attitude, it should be no surprise to anyone that Curtis has defied all obstacles to return to the studio and record once again. His brand new Warner Brothers release, New World Order, is a triumph of will and spirit, filled with social consciousness and that old Mayfield vibe. Unable to sit upright for long periods of time due to painful blood pressure drops, Curtis recorded his vocal parts in a reclined position, often needing to sing the songs in short sections. Easily fatigued due to his injuries, simply finishing the album was triumph enough. But New World Order stands on its own merits as a beautiful and important album. Joined by Mavis Staples ("Ms. Martha") and Aretha Franklin ("Back To Living Again"), Curtis and company have made magic once again. Interviewing the legendary Curtis Mayfield meant a great deal to me, as he had been such an important part of my musical upbringing. As a result, I spent the last few days before the interview working myself into a frenzy of nerves. It took the genuinely kind and gracious Mr. Mayfield less than a minute to put me at ease. It's comforting to know that the sweet persona his music suggests is the real thing. Speaking by phone from his home in Atlanta, Georgia, he discussed New World Order, the recent Rhino Records 3-CD compilation (People Get Ready), and a few other topics near and dear to his heart. Our time was limited by his hectic interview schedule, so I wasn't able to ask the approximately three hundred questions I had always wanted to ask him. This will do nicely, though. Meet the man who commands the respect to be called Mr. Mayfield, yet inspires the love and recognition to be known the world over as, simply, Curtis. * * * Cosmik: Let's start with the here and now. New World Order is your first album in a long while. What did it feel like to you to be able to get back in the studio? Curtis: Well, it felt great after I found that the music was going to work for me. And vocally, once I heard myself in the playback, I had no more problems. Cosmik: How was the recording process different from before the accident? Curtis: Of course, prior to my accident, I had a diaphragm and my lungs were strong, and I could stand up and belt it and get into the tune. The difference now is that I DON'T have a diaphragm and my lungs are quite weak. So I've found a way to lay back and use gravity for my lungs to help me be stronger in the recording studio. Cosmik: How long at a stretch are you able to sing like that? Curtis: Surprisingly, sometimes I'd be in the studio still five to six hours, so I just felt like once I got started, let's get it on, you know? Cosmik: That's fantastic. So you adjusted to the process pretty quickly. Curtis: Yes sir, we did, and I felt pretty good about it. The songs were working pretty good for me, and of course the only difference was that sometimes I would maybe have to punch in at the latter part of the lyric so I could be just as strong at the end as I was in the beginning part. And that's nothing unusual when recording. The importance, of course, was to still continue the sincerity and the honesty throughout the track. Cosmik: My feeling, listening to the album, is that if I hadn't known the story of what happened to you, I wouldn't have been able to tell there was any difference. Your singing is beautiful, the writing's beautiful, everything seems perfect. Were you surprised, yourself, at how it all came out? Curtis: Well, I was certainly pleased with the turn out, and of course, I had tried to get into the studio before, coming out of the hospital, and I found that it was hard for me to sit up and perform as I used to. But the importance was finding and learning my limitations. And after understanding what I'd have to do, it wasn't as tough as it might seem. Cosmik: How did not being able to play guitar change your writing process? What did you have to do to make the writing process work for you? Curtis: Well, you know, that is very tough--and I still mourn not having my guitar. However, there are so many of the young producers who have kind of kept my sound, like Organized Noise... I have used, from time to time, the guitarists that used to play with me. The only difference was, of course, in my writing--my own chord structure and my voicings, as I might hear it in my own head, sometimes may not be there. But many of the new producers, such as Narada Michael Walden, and all the people that work with me, they seem to have a pretty good feel for what Curtis might be about. Cosmik: So much of your music has a great groove. When you have a groove in your head, do you find that you can relate it to the producers or musicians you're working with? Curtis: Well, it's hard, but once we get in the studio, if there's anything I feel that I need, I find a way to interpret it and get it across. Cosmik: I want to ask about the songs on New World Order. First of all, was there really a Ms. Martha? Curtis: Oh, there's a LOT of Ms. Martha's, I believe. I've known a Ms. Martha during my young childhood, and I've known a Ms. Martha... I mean, not the same name, but the LADY that we describe in the song... I've known this woman probably all my life in many ways and in many towns. I think there's a Ms. Martha, probably, in many a young folks' life. Cosmik: A positive role model. Curtis: I'd like to think so. That lady that don't say too much, but it seems like when you're playing and when you're around her, you seem to want to get your act together. Cosmik: "A Little Bit Of Love" has a classic Curtis Mayfield groove. Did you come up with that music? Curtis: This particular song, with the help of Raimundo Thomas...we call him Ray...He came up with a lot of the feel, and once he came up with the feel, I helped him, lyrically. When it came to production, I decided I wanted an upright bass on there...and things of that sort. Cosmik: Your son did a great rap on that track. How did it feel to record with Blaise? Curtis: Oh, it felt great! Actually, I was on the way to the studio and I just grabbed him up. He didn't even know he was going. This was the first time in the studio for Blaise. Cosmik: Does he have the desire to keep going with it? Curtis: Well, he's always been a heavy rapper, so I thought I'd make use of it. However, it's kind of hard. He's still a youngster, and it's kind of hard to say just where he wants to be, as to his own personal career. Cosmik: He sure sounds like he was born to it. It was an excellent rap. Curtis: Well, thank you. I'll certainly relate that to him. Cosmik: Why did you decide to redo "We People Who Are Darker Than Blue?" Curtis: I felt it was important to continue to say it. We did it twenty years ago...maybe twenty four years ago... and unfortunately, it's something that still needs to be said today. Cosmik: Are you somewhat surprised to see that racial tension has survived the era of diversity education, affirmative action, and supposed enlightenment? Curtis: Well, I suppose I just might be, in ways. However, a lot of the racial tension is more of a surface thing that has always been played with the corporations and the people higher on the totem pole, in my opinion. And it'll probably always be used, here and there, when the higher-ups want to do something else, and they don't want the poor blacks--OR the poor whites--to see what they're doing. Cosmik: So many of your songs were songs of empowerment...songs with a positive message. Do you think that need is being filled today in popular music? Curtis: Well, I'd like to think so. It's my signature, anyway, to always speak on something, hopefully, that might be inspiring, or in depth as a love song, or just to lend an ear for food for thought in general. Cosmik: I want to backtrack just a bit here... I thought the talk box in "We People Who Are Darker Than Blue" was extremely effective. Are those all vocal parts, or are there guitar parts mixed in? Curtis: No, those are all vocals. That's Roger Troutman. He wanted to do this particular track again, and that's Roger with his many different voices doing his thing. Cosmik: Which track was the most satisfying for you? Curtis: That's hard to say. While I like them all, if I had to favor any particular one...gosh...I like the Organized Noise..."Here But I'm Gone," and of course I like "Ms. Martha." Gosh, like I say, I guess I like them all. I like "New World Order..." Cosmik: That's a beautiful track. Curtis: And "Back To Living Again." Well, I also like the Daryl Simmons. I suppose if I had to favor one, the way Daryl Simmons put the track together. We wrote the song together. "You Don't Have To Cry." Cosmik: Let me ask you about the Rhino box. I'm the proud owner of one of those. How much input did you have into that project? Curtis: Oh, gosh, I was pleased with it, too. A lot of those things were cut down to put 51 tracks in there, but it was well put together, and they allowed me to put in my two cents here and there to make sure it was correct. I was very pleased with it, personally. Cosmik: Was that the first time you had heard some of those songs in a long time? Curtis: Well, yes and no. I have all of those old albums, and I have them on DAT. I owned many of the tracks myself, as Curtom Records, and of course Warner Brothers has always allowed me to lease many of their tracks out. And MCA, who owns many of the early era Impressions tracks... they're pretty close, too, so I hear them quite regularly. Cosmik: I'm a liner note fanatic, and the Rhino booklet was very interesting. The listing of musicians in the back didn't seem to have anybody listed from the Superfly era, though. Curtis: Oh, didn't they? Cosmik: Didn't seem to. I've gone over it a couple times to see if I missed something, but I just don't see it. Superfly's listed as "K," and there aren't any musicians names with "K" next to them, at least that I can find. Curtis: Ooooh, we blew it, then. Cosmik: Who were some of the players that worked with you in that era? [Curtis asks his assistant to bring him a Superfly CD from the music shelf.] Curtis: I'll be able to tell you in a few seconds. Of course, I always used my basic rhythm section, which was...Joseph "Lucky" Scott...but let me get the liner notes so I can get you the actual people there... Cosmik: I appreciate that. [Curtis and his assistant talk for a moment.] Curtis: Okay, let's see what we have here. Uh...you know what? Even on the CD, it doesn't show everybody. [Curtis' assistant brings him an original release LP of Superfly.] Curtis: Okay, we might have a little more here. Hmmm...You know what? We do not have all the musicians on this album, I'm sorry to say. But it was Joseph "Lucky" Scott... I used Phillip Upchurch on many of them. Of course I played guitar myself, Phillip played guitar, Joseph played bass... Gosh, we used a lot of strings and horns that I just could never remember. Cosmik: Oh yeah, it was a large section! Curtis: Zob [name may be incorrect--the word was very quiet on the interview tape - Ed.] was the drummer of some of the tracks, and then I also used Tyrone McCullen--He also played drums on a few of the tracks. And of course I used Johnny Pate as the arranger. Cosmik: Do you remember when you did "Beautiful Brother Of Mine," that great distorted bass line... Was that something you came up with, or was it something the bass player came up with? Curtis. Oh yeah! That was mine. Cosmik: That was a GREAT sound! Curtis: Well, thank you so kindly. All of that is in the Rhino 3-CD album. Cosmik: I saw a news clipping about you recently. It was about The Impressions receiving a lifetime achievement award from Drew Medical School. Curtis: Oh yes! As a matter of fact, I just talked with Mr. Roland, who put that all together. That was very nice. I got a chance to see Martin Luther King the 3rd, and a lot of beautiful people were there, and they were very nice to myself and the Impressions. Cosmik: What was the award for, exactly? Curtis: Well, they were honoring myself and the Impressions as to all the music that we made tribute to over the years, and of course many of my songs being of inspirational value...songs like "Keep On Pushing" and "We People Who Are Darker Than Blue." Many of my songs were of that type of evaluation. A lot of people, back during those years, made use of those songs and they would sing them when they were trying to move into areas of equality. Cosmik: How long had it been since you had seen the other Impressions? Curtis: Oh, I think the last time I saw them WAS the Drew... Cosmik: I mean before that. Curtis: Prior to that, they were working here, and I'd seen them about two or three weeks prior to the Drew... the honoring of that particular thing was, I think, October 5th, and I'd seen The Impressions a couple of weeks prior to that. Cosmik: So have you remained close with them? Curtis: Oh, yeah. I try to see them every chance I get, and of course, I talk to them quite often. Cosmik: Were the Impressions years some good times for you? Curtis: Oh, yes, definitely. I mean, I was a kid. I was the youngest of the fellas. The Impressions, being made up of Fred Cash, Samuel Goodman, Jerry Butler... we go way back. Cosmik: All the way back to The Roosters, huh? Curtis: They were good people. They'll always been in my life. Cosmik: You know, Rhino just came out with that Doo Wop box...Doo Wop II. I was hoping to see The Roosters on that. Curtis: Oh, the Doo Wop box? That takes you back with a lot of the original doo wop songs. I've always been a quartet fan, you know? I love my quartets. Cosmik: Well, now that you've gone back into the studio, are you comfortable enough with the new process that you might go back in again soon? Curtis: Well, I'm comfortable enough, and of course at my age and during these times, it's very interesting just to watch and see what happens. But it's very important to me. This is still a business, and of course I'd like to see it earn revenue for all that have invested. That's very important to me. If it proves that people still want the product, then I'll be happy to get back in the studio and do more. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- A MODERN COLLABORATION: Vai Meets Thome (Part II) Interviewed by Paul Remington In part one of our interview with guitarist Steve Vai and conductor Joel Thome we discussed the art of the orchestra, composition, and their late-September collaboration with the Kilbourn Orchestra at the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, NY. A unique blend of orchestral music with rock ensemble, Vai and Thome are on the forefront of this form of collaboration, and like Lewis and Clark, are exploring previously uncharted territory. The result is surprisingly fresh, with Vai's compositional ideas molded for orchestra with the support of Thome. Their combined experience composing and working with orchestras provides an educated common ground for the crossing of two distinctly different musical genres. Their collaboration is unlike any other collaboration that has utilized this form of instrumentation. At the heart of Vai and Thome's musical background is their association with Frank Zappa. Zappa was a true pioneer of 20th Century composition. He liberally utilized classical, jazz, rock, and many other musical elements in a surprisingly unique and natural way. Zappa's influence left an indelible mark on Vai and Thome. During our conversation, neither could resist talking about Zappa, and how he changed the way they approach music. In many respects, Zappa's influence was a major factor behind Vai and Thome's collaboration. In part two of our conversation we dive deeper into the subject of Frank Zappa, the ground-breaking concepts he was exploring prior to his death, as well as a few humorous and fond memories shared from their friendship with this 20th Century genius. Zappa is no longer with us, but the influence of his music and talent continues to have a profound effect on today's music, as can be seen with the modern collaboration of Vai and Thome. This aspect of Vai's career may not be making headlines at the moment, but fans of Vai should take note: he has every intention to continue his collaboration with Thome, and to perform orchestral concerts internationally. The logistics of mounting a project like this are immense, and the threat of financial loss due to lack of interest poses a real concern for those providing financial backing to execute such a project. Both Vai and Thome recognize this, and have discovered there is a built-in audience for this type of music. This is the motivation behind their continued collaboration. With talk of completing an orchestral score of Zappa's Greggery Peccary based on Zappa's original transcripts, working together with different orchestras, and releasing recorded material of their collaboration, we can only stand to gain from their musical exploration. From a musical standpoint, they are defining a form of music that is a hybrid cross between classical and rock. Time will tell if others explore this form of collaboration. Time will tell. * * * Cosmik: I have to give you a hello from Mike Keneally. Vai: He's in my band! Cosmik: Of course he is. We keep in contact from time to time. I mentioned I was going to be interviewing you, and he said to say hello. Now, how did you settle on Mike? I can see it being a natural selection, but I want to hear it from you. Vai: Well, he's really talented, you know, and I needed someone that could play guitar and keyboards, and play all the right notes. It's hard to find somebody that can play the guitar and play that stuff properly - and keyboards at the same time, because I didn't want to bring two extra guys out. And Mike's a very naturally gifted musician, besides being an intellectual monster, you know? And I figured I'd give it a try, and I gave him a call, and at first he was like, "Ummm . . . I don't know." And then he called me back and said, "Yeah, I'd love to." Cosmik: I wonder what the "I don't know" was all about? Vai: What had happened was, he was focusing on his own music, and he had made commitments to people, and it was hard for him to break those commitments because he was joining my band. Cosmik: Have you had any collaboration with Mike prior to asking him to join your band? Vai: No. Cosmik: I assume you had talked previously, but you had never gigged with him, is that right? Vai: I never gigged with Mike, but I knew of his stuff. I knew how talented he was. Cosmik: Have you ever seen him perform Inca Roads, where he has the right hand playing lines on the keyboard, and the left comping chords on the guitar? [Laughs] It's bizarre - It's wild! Vai: [Laughs] I've got him doing some of that stuff in our band. Yeah. Thome: I did a setting for orchestra on Inca Roads, and he plays on that. He's also on our recording of Zappa's Universe. Then we did a tribute to Frank at Avery Fischer Hall in February of 1993, and it was a tribute to Varese and Zappa. Cosmik: The support for Frank seems to be growing, especially his orchestral music. Vai: It's not gonna stop. Cosmik: Yeah, that brings up another issue: It seems to me as though Frank would have concerns as to whether or not there would be lasting value to his music. One-hundred years from now would people know who Frank Zappa was, and would they even care? Vai: He didn't care. Cosmik: He didn't. Vai: Nope. If you ask Frank what would he like to be remembered for after he's dead, he'd say, "Nothing." Thome: Yeah, in fact, somebody asked him that. I remember Carol [Sorell, Vai's publicist] booked him on the Today Show. Vai: He said wanting to be remembered was for politicians and . . . what did he say, politicians and somebody else. Rock stars, or something. [Laughs] Cosmik: Towards the end of Frank's life, when he knew he was dying, he centered on the music he loved the most. He devoted all his time to the Synclavier, working with the Ensemble Modern, which produced, in my opinion, some of his greatest works. Do you think it really may have crossed his mind, hey - I really want to put something down that is as masterful as I can create for lasting value. Now, I know he said he didn't care, but his actions towards the end appeared that he might have. What do you think? Vai: I don't know. I just think that he saw himself as a storehouse of creativity and he just wanted to get as much out as he could. Thome: Also, you did not hear what he actually planned for the concert in Germany. Nobody ever heard that. What he was planning was very different. Cosmik: Oh, is that right? Thome: Very different. Cosmik: Can you explain? Thome: I can tell you calls and discussions we had in the middle of the night over a period of time. He was talking about the music he was working on and that he wanted to prepare for that. Some of it included three dimensional manipulation of acoustical space, and installation ideas that he had. He was interested in installing the music in a space and letting it sit there for a while, and also working with the way the music would reverberate in the acoustical space. That's what he was actually working on, and it just didn't come to fruition. Vai: You know how much material he has released, right? It's probably about 4% of what he has. He went through this period that he was doing six track mixes of his music. And you'd sit in the basement, and you'd have six speakers - independent. Not this Dolby extracting overtones and out of phase stuff that movies do, you know. Independent, six track channel separation. The Yellow Shark - that whole concert was constructed around that concept. I went to Austria and saw three of the performances. Cosmik: Oh, you did? Vai: Yes, I did. And, I've never heard anything like it because you have this Ensemble Modern on the stage, and the way that he wrote the music - the dynamics - and the way he had the speakers setup, and the way that the instruments speak, the dynamics of the instruments would reach certain areas of the room, when the speakers would kick in. For instance, I sat in a different place for each concert. It was a completely different three dimensional audio experience each time. First of all, concert halls don't setup speakers like that, normally, and he had this done special. I remember several times where I'd watch, and the guitar player was picking, and the dynamics were really soft and then really hard, and it was fast picking, like this. And, as he did this, the sound went [motions movement from front to back] like this. Because the pick had a certain dynamic and when it got soft, it was over here [gesturing behind him], and then when it got hard it was from the stage. And the same thing with the trombones, and he had some other instruments that were very sharp, and the way the strings would play, certain ways the bows would hit the instrument would create sounds from the speakers rather than the stage. And, you just sit there and you realize that you're witnessing history, and that it's a secret. [Smiles] Cosmik: And that never came out on the recording. You can't capture that. Vai: How many people have six track stereos? How many people could sit in this acoustically built room with this, you know . . . it wasn't just where the speakers were placed, Frank placed the musicians! Nobody realized the depths he was thinking. Thome: And, also the compositional ideas he was working on were very different. I don't know all the reasons for their not emerging at that time, but when he would call me late at night he'd be talking about the compositional ideas he was working on, and I think probably there just wasn't the time to get that together, because the compositional ideas were pretty staggering. They were really exciting. Cosmik: It was beyond what he did produce? Thome: It was very different, yeah. Vai: You can hear it in Civilization Phaze III and the Yellow Shark, and stuff like that. It is absolutely . . . I mean, you hear that word "unique" so often in every bio, in every press release. But, the definition of the word is in his music. Cosmik: I've never heard anything like Civilization Phaze III. It blew me away! Vai: Nobody's doing it. Cosmik: Nobody can! I firmly believe nobody can do that. Nobody can. It's pure Zappa. I don't think we'll hear anything quite like that again. Vai: Uh-huh. Thome: I was invited to Cuba to conduct the National Symphony of Cuba's opening for the International Festival of New Music. Composers and a conductors come from all over the world. I was the first conductor/composer from the United States to be invited for a long time, of course. I remember it was at the time when the Russians were leaving, and Frank and I were working on Zappa's Universe. I said, "I'm going to Havana, and I want to do Sad Jane." He loved the idea, and said "Well, do you think I could go too?" I said, "I think you could go. I think it would be a great idea." He said, "Okay, I want to take the Synclavier." [Laughs] "Do you think they would get it on the plane for us?" I said, "Yeah, I think it would be great." In Cuba they have a computer music studio that runs 24 hours a day. So, there are a lot of composers doing electronic music there. They were very excited about that. Then his health began to deteriorate, and it wasn't possible. He was going to get that Synclavier on that plane no matter what. Cosmik: He wanted it. Thome: Yeah. Vai: He called me, and he had put together a concert with the Ensemble Modern and a rock band. Actually, it was probably going to be the closest thing to what we're doing. Cosmik: When was this? Vai: This was right before he fell fatally ill. And we talked about it, and we got it together, and we got together with the . . . uh, Hans? [Looks towards Thome] Thome: Yeah. Vai: The orchestra master. And it was all of Frank's hardest music. He was giving me the melodies. I mean, like Mo 'N Herb's Vacation, and the Black Page, the Sinister Footwear movements. It was me, Terry Bozzio, and we were still discussing who the bass player was going to be. It was going to be with this 30 or 40 piece orchestra, and Frank was really excited about that. That was, I think, the last thing he tried to put together, and then, you know, he had a down-slope. That would have been my dream, to play that music with that orchestra, or one of them. It's just such a . . . I wouldn't write that music for myself. It's way too complicated, you know? Cosmik: Yeah. The Ensemble Modern seemed to be a perfect choice. Vai: Yeah. Cosmik: I went and saw them at Penn State last April. When I walked backstage and they brought me onstage, they were performing Zappa's music, and in many respects you're right, Steve. It's such a different experience when you're really there and you can hear it live rather than having two speakers in front of you. It takes on a whole different flavor, a whole different feel. Vai: Yeah. Cosmik: There's one thing I wanted to ask you, Joel. It almost seems a matter of philosophy, regarding amplifying orchestras. What is your take on that? I mean, the Philadelphia Orchestra had that famous Philadelphia sound where they would do things like tune down the violins slightly, and experiment with things to play with their sound. While that form of manipulation is acceptable, amplifying an orchestra is a taboo thing to some. Thome: I have a lot of feelings about that. Vai: I turn up my amp, boy. [Laughter] Cosmik: [Laughs] Well, you play an amplified instrument. Thome: I've had a couple of experiences that I think would help put a little light on that. One is that the Philadelphia sound happened because of one person, and that was Leapold Stokowski. Cosmik: Right, yeah. Thome: That was the Philadelphia sound. Cosmik: Well, yeah . . . it was his ideas in sound experiments. He re-placed people and moved people around. Thome: He was absolutely brilliant! He moved people around - the whole thing. That's what I mean. He had the genius to hear that sound and to be that sound, and the Philadelphia Orchestra became his instrument. But the sound was within Stokowski. He had the ears, the brilliance, the genius to make it happen. There's a couple of other things: one is that, today, even with all of the knowledge of acoustics that we have, it's hard to find a hall like Eastman Theater, which has incredible acoustics. Now, because of the acoustical problems in halls around the country, there has to be some form of acoustic blending electronically, even with acoustic music. I mean, you find it in so many halls. There's some kind of acoustic amplification to enhance the acoustics of halls. The third thing is an experience that Frank and I had when we did the tribute to Edgar Varese. He decided it should be at the Palladium, and we'd been thinking about other spaces . . . other acoustical spaces. And he said, "When we do it at the Palladium, we're going to amplify your orchestra [Thome's Orchestra of Our Time], and I'm gonna bring my engineer in to do that." He brought the engineer in, it was Bob Stone, and he amplified the orchestra. The engineer I was using to make the tape is one of the best classical engineers in the world. He does Deutsche Grammophone, Nonesuch, does all this stuff . . . he did the Marlboro series, when Rudy Serkin was there. So, he did all of those, and he said, "My God, how can you amplify the instruments!" I said, "You wait, you wait. Frank knows exactly what's going to happen." Cosmik: Part of an orchestra's sound is defined by the dynamics of the musicians themselves. Thome: Right. Cosmik: If you place microphones in front of them, doesn't that strip away their attention to dynamics? Vai: Not if you have good microphones. Thome: Right. That's right. If you have good microphones, you don't have to be concerned about that. Cosmik: The dynamics are decided by the conductor, isn't that right? Thome: Yeah. Cosmik: If you add the mikes, you have a guy behind the board making decisions on sound levels and dynamics. Vai: Well, the guy behind the board just makes it overall louder. Cosmik: Doesn't that alter the natural dynamics you may have without the amplification itself? Vai: Yes, absolutely. Cosmik: So, it does come down to philosophy. Vai: Well, I mean, there are different ways of thinking about it. If you're going to sit and watch a concert, like at Eastman, without any amplification, you'll hear everything, yeah, and it'll be dynamic. But, if you have proper amplification and proper miking and stereo span, if the engineer knows what he's doing, you'll get dynamics. If the violin player is going [sings a soft note], it's going to come through the PA like this [sings similar soft note]. But if he's going [sings loud and distorted note], then it's going to come through the PA like that. Thome: Yeah. Vai: It's probably more dynamic. Thome: We have an excellent engineer that's used to working with orchestras. I mean, he's worked with orchestras all over the world, and he's done a lot of rock concerts. He was an engineer for Frank at one point. He did the European tour with Frank. His name is Ron Lorman. He was also Miles' [Davis] engineer for a long time. He's done everything from small groups to engineering for Frank, to engineering orchestras all over the world. So, he's used to coming in and working with orchestras and rock group, together. So, he's extremely sensitive to that. He's got great ears. He was a percussionist, which means he's a genius, right? [Laughter - Thome is a percussionist] Vai: No, it means he's crazy! [Laughter] Thome: Crazy genius. No, he's a really wonderful engineer. Cosmik: Do you have any aspirations to record some of what you're doing now? Thome: We certainly do. Cosmik: With Steve? Thome: Oh yeah. Vai: We were gonna record this, but it was the first time, and we want to get all the bugs out of the music. We want to do more performances. Cosmik: Is this the first time you've played fronting an orchestra? Vai: No, I've done it with Joel a couple of times. Cosmik: I know you worked with Joel on Zappa's Universe. Thome: We've also done performances with the Seattle Symphony. Cosmik: Oh, is that right? How did that go? Were you pleased with the results? Vai: Yeah, it was very simple for me. I played about three Frank songs, and I knew the melodies. Cosmik: Yeah, well, you know all those anyway. Vai: [Laughs] I got up there, and having a singing guitar with the strength of an orchestra in the back of you is really wonderful. Cosmik: I think Gil Evans wanted to do that with Jimi Hendrix and a big band. They actually sat at a table and signed on it, and Jimi died, so they never did it. But, Gil did release an album of Jimi's work as they had planned, minus Jimi. I don't know how effective that collaboration would have been, but the concept was there, and it's similar to the concept the two of you are kicking around. Thome: What makes our collaboration different is that sometimes you have orchestra and performer, and the performer goes around to different orchestras, and the conductor goes around with different performers, etc. This is a collaboration between two composer/performers with orchestra, where you have a phenomenal performer/guitarist who's also an extraordinary composer, and you have a conductor/composer, and they're doing something which, together, they take around to orchestras in various locations. Vai: It's a dynamic duo. Thome: It's a dynamic duo. You could get into this whole thing, like, "We have to get this together and take it on the road?" Well, no, it's vaudeville. Vai: We only have to take the two of us. Thome: That's right. [Laughs] Vai: And the wives, of course. Thome: I would also like to acknowledge the fact that we have two wonderful performers with us, Mike Mangini the drummer, and Phil Bynoe the bass player. And, they're two people who really understand what we're doing. Phil was also a cellist who comes from a family of string players. His father is a bass player, his mother was a pianist, he's a cellist, and it goes on and on through his whole family. So, he understands this kind of marriage. Mike Mangini, the drummer, is such a terrific performer as well, and he totally understands this kind of marriage. So, you have people who understand . . . Vai: And are very dedicated. Thome: . . . and are very dedicated to what you are doing. Cosmik: What do you plan to be doing 20 years from now, Steve? Do you plan to continue working with orchestras? Vai: Well, I hope to be exploring different realms. This is scratching the surface, really, with some of the things I'd like to be contributing to the music scene. But, my influence with Frank . . . the things that I do in rock and roll right now, I do because I'm young. I say to myself, should I do this kind of a record right now, or should I do that kind of a record, because I'd like to do them both. And I say, do this kind because you can still go out on tour and do it, and they'll still put you on the magazines and whatever. So, I do that stuff now. But, you know, I've got some different things that I'd like to work on in the future, but we'll see. Cosmik: I respect your devotion to Frank. It seems people who have worked with him, universally, have this respect for him that I don't see with other musicians. Vai: Frank was walking poetry. Thome: Yeah. Vai: And, if you knew how to read it, you really savored it. Cosmik: One of my favorite solos of yours while with Frank was on Ya Hozna. That solo blew me away! Vai: [Smiles widely] Ahhhhh, Ya Hozna! We did that at a soundcheck at Italy. Cosmik: Is that where that's recorded? I mean, the solo itself? Vai: Yeah. He pointed at me. See, he would do this thing where he'd point, and he'd just say, "Go!" And, I just improvised that solo. The original track for Ya Hozna is different than what's on tape now. I have tapes of that with the original background. Cosmik: How did the original version differ from what was released? Vai: He just re-recorded a rhythm section. He changed the drums and the bass. It was similar. I don't know why he re-recorded it. Cosmik: He never released that version. Vai: No. And, a lot of the backwards singing is [sings], "You're a dirty little girl, and your mommy and your daddy don't care." He put Moon on there also. You know what the beginning part of Ya Hozna is in reverse? It's Sofa. Cosmik: Yeah, that's right. The Zappa newsgroup FAQ has a reverse transcription of the song. Thome: There's an unbelievable story behind Ya Hozna: Mats Oberg could do that, and that was Frank's idea. Again, we were talking about arranging stuff for Zappa's Universe. Frank said, "I believe Mats could do Ya Hozna." [Pause] I said, "What!" He said, "I believe Mats can do it." I called Mats in Sweden, and over the phone he did Ya Hozna so it sounded exactly like the backwards vocal tracks with all the inflections, like the tape recorder was running . . . Cosmik: Oh my God! Vai: He did?! Cosmik: That's unbelievable! Thome: It's unbelievable. Vai: This guy, you never hear him talk - he's blind, and he's an incredible keyboard player. Cosmik: I could never understand how Frank conceived that piece. I mean, when you listen to it, towards the end, it almost has a lyrical quality. Some of the backwards singing slows down and becomes melodic. It's right before your solo begins. Vai: Yeah, he took pieces from all over for that. Cosmik: What blows me away is, how did he know how to piece it together to create such an effective piece? Vai: He was a chemist. He was a musical chemist. He'd sit in his little Utility Muffin Research Kitchen, and he'd sit there and he'd laugh, and he'd throw this stuff together and he'd call to you, "Oh, come on down and listen to this." [Laughter] Cosmik: It's brilliant - it's genius. Vai: If you were walking by the house, he would drag you in and sit you down for nine hours and play you stuff [Looks to Thome], right? Thome: That's right, nine hours at a stretch. You'd just sit there and listen . . . just sit there and listen. Cosmik: God damn . . . had he only lived . . . to hear what else he could have accomplished. Vai: You know what's really funny - well, not really funny - what's ironic is that composers of that stature really start hitting their prime when they're about 50. Cosmik: Yeah . . . Thome: Yeah. Cosmik: . . . that's right. Vai: From the age of 50 to 70 is when they come out with their most masterful works. Can you imagine . . . can you just imagine! I mean, think of Civilization Phaze III, and think of what Frank would have been doing in 20 years from now. Cosmik: Oh yeah. He only had about 10 years with the Synclavier, really. Vai: Yeah, well, Frank would have been on that Synclavier, and if something else came along, he would have thrown it away, and went to something else. Thome: You know there's also a funny story about Valley Girl - one night Frank calls up Carol [Sorell, Steve's publicist] and says, "I just did this thing with Moon called Valley Girl. Could you please take it and see what you can do with it, you know, get it out there, etc.?" Vai: Oh, it became a big hit. Thome: So, he calls back two weeks later and says "I don't know what happened to this one, but it really took off." [Laughs] Vai: Oh really, she put it out? Thome: Yeah, yeah. He wanted her to put it out, but while they were putting it together the thing just took off on its own. So, he calls me back and says, "I think I just found a way to send Moon to college." [Laughter] Vai: Yeah, well, Frank, he does a lot of things, and then he doesn't. He had that record out there and he didn't release a single. Thome: Oh, is that what happened? Vai: Yeah. Cosmik: I'm looking forward to hearing the musical output of the G3 tour. Do you have any plans of recording the tour? Vai: Yeah, we're planning on recording it. Cosmik: Is it going to be a double CD? Vai: I don't know. Cosmik: Why did you change to a single CD on your current release, Fire Garden? Vai: Because it's too expensive for a Steve Vai double CD. Cosmik: You switched labels, so I though that might have had something to do with it. Vai: Well, to get a record company to release a double CD is really hard. It's expensive. It's more expensive to the fans, so you sell less, so the record company doesn't like it. It's more expensive for the record company because there's more music and they have to pay you more. It's a logistic nightmare. And, for me, I would release a triple CD. I'd love to. Cosmik: I'd buy it. [Laughter] Vai: [Smiles] Thank you. I have to conform now, I have no choice. Well, I have a choice. It's either that or don't get my music released. Cosmik: You changed the name of the CD two or three times. [Quiet laughter from someone in the room. Vai looks shyly at the person] Vai: Yes . . . I did. Cosmik: Why? Vai: Because, as the music evolved, the concept evolved, and the title I had just didn't seem to work. Cosmik: Now, why isn't the concept inside the CD? I mean, when I opened it up, I never knew there was a concept to it until I heard you mention it on the radio. Vai: Well, if you're interested in that kind of stuff, you got to fish for it. Cosmik: [Laughs] There you go . . . make us think. Vai: You got to get on the Web site [http://www.vai.com/], and get a copy of the script, and you got to click on the little icons, and you got to read interviews. Cosmik: Do you have the screenplay up anywhere? Do you plan on doing anything with it? Vai: Well, somebody bought it already. They're trying to make it into a film, but it's very expensive. And, they want me to star in it, and I'm not an accountable quantity for movie people. But, they're working on it, and we'll see what happens. Cosmik: There's more stuff to come. Vai: That's right. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- JACKING IN TO THE PUNK TRADITION: Cosmik Debris meets Down By Law Interview By Shaun Dale (with DJ Johnson) I won't pretend that it was without trepidation that I approached the doors of RKCNDY, an all ages music club in downtown Seattle. The last member of my family to attend a show there was fourteen, and I was more likely to run into her peers than mine at this show. But I was glad for the chance to see the band whose new disc, "All Scratched Up," had spent more time in my player than any new punk release in a good many years. I also had the encouraging company of Cozmik Editor-In-Chief D.J. Johnson, who is *almost* as old as I am, and at least twice as old as the typical RKCNDY customer. Any reservations I had dissolved quickly once we got to the 12x12 room crowded with ice chests and old couches that was serving as dressing room for all three bands on the evening's bill (Down By Law played between Canadian newcomers Pluto and local heroes Gas Huffer). Seated at the far end of the room were lead guitar player Sam Williams III and bassman Angry John DiMambro. We settled right into a wide ranging and generally fascinating conversation that touched on the history of the band, punk music and the punk audience in the 1990s. * * * * John: Hi, I'm John and he's Sam...otherwise known as "Angry John..". Shaun: So how angry are you? John: Well man, you should have been there last night. Shaun: Well, hopefully tonight will turn out better. Both of you have songwriting credits on the new album, right? John: I wrote "Far and Away" with Dave. Sam: I wrote about a third of the album. John: Is that thing running? Shaun: Yeah. John: Cause I want to know whenever I'm on tape. Shaun: Well, it's on - don't admit to anything... John: Don't worry, I'm not gonna vote for Mumbly Joe. Shaun: How bout that - are you gonna vote at all? John: I'm gonna try. I get home that day, so I'll go in there and flip a coin between Wingnut and Slick Willy. Shaun: Wingnut? John: Yeah. I call Perot "Wingnut" because his ears are so big he looks like a wingnut on the end of a pencil. Shaun: So Dole's not a factor? John: No, he's absolutely not a factor at all except for the comedy value. The only thing that would be good if he got elected is that all that hate would be good for about another ten years of punk rock. Cause Reagan was one of the best things that ever happened to punk music in America. DJ: He made the Dead Kennedys' career... John: Yeah, Jello really couldn't get behind hating Jerry Brown, but when it came to hating Reagan... Shaun: So how long have you guys been doing this together? John: I've been in the band for three years. Sam's been in for four. The band's existed for five years. Shaun: Sam, you live in Florida and the rest of the band is in LA. Has the bi-coastal thing been going on the whole time? Sam: Yeah. Actually, even more so. We had another drummer who played on the last album who lived on the east coast, but the drummer we have now, Danny, he's on the west coast so everyone but me lives in LA. Shaun: Were you in LA when you got together with these guys? Sam: No, never. I knew about them and I wrote to them and said I'd try out. John: He wrote a letter saying he could play "Rock You Like a Hurricane" like a son of a bitch so they said we have to give this guy a chance. I had nothing to do with that. I hate him. Shaun: Well, you're angry. You hate everybody, right? John: Fuckin A right. Shaun: Those are basic punk rock credentials - every punk band has to have an angry somebody... John: I'm pretty mild most of the time - unless I'm driving. Shaun: Your sound is kind of a roots punk thing - a lot of classic punk anthem styles. Who would you want people to think of when they hear you? John: It's kind of like all the bands that influenced us are like that - especially Dave. He listens to, like, Stiff Little Fingers and the Clash and a lot of English bands. That's where those anthem kind of tracks come from. Shaun: Yeah, I thought of the Clash and the Ramones, at least the Ramones during a certain period when I actually liked them. John: We did an in-store at Sam Goody in New York this spring and Joey Ramone was there. It was cool - he liked us and stuff. I didn't think he was real 'cause I'd never heard him talk before. Even when I saw the Ramones he never talks, he just sings one song into the other. I talked to him and he was a standard New York kind of guy. Shaun: So what's the story behind "True Music" on the new album? Did you guys really make a show biz video that compromised your principles? Sam: You'd have to talk to Dave about compromising principles, but we have made a few videos and the last two have been played on 120 Minutes. One of them quite regularly - "Radio Ragga." John: "Independence Day" is like a minute fifteen seconds long. US News did an article that said the longest and shortest videos ever on MTV were Michael Jackson's "Bad" for like 16:23 and Down by Law's "Independence Day" for 1:15. DJ: What kind of reaction has there been to being on MTV - considering a lot of people get pissed off if a band gets on MTV... John: There was one girl who - I don't know if she wrote a letter or wrote to the Unofficial Down By Law Homepage or what - but she wrote "I hate you guys, you've changed, burn in Hell, sellouts." Like this total stupid trash. I think it was off "Independence Day," not even "Radio Ragga." [Ed. Note: The Unofficial Down By Law Homepage is located at http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~sstackho/dbl/dbl.htm] Shaun: Yeah, you're sellouts - you might be able to buy strings next week off the proceeds. John: Something like that. Yeah, I'm just rolling in dough right now. I don't know what to do with it all. I think I'll buy a Kit Kat bar. Shaun: Well, it shows from the spacious and exotic digs here... John: Yeah, the belly dancers show up any minute. Where did it say in the punk handbook that you had to take a vow of poverty like the Jesuits or be a Communist and sleep under a park bench and eat beans and live off your parents, you know what I mean? That's my point - where the hell did that come from? I'm not with that at all. And the original punk bands, you know, the Clash were on Epic and the Sex Pistols set out absolutely to rob major labels of as much money as they could possibly get and did it again this year. I don't know where that came from. I guess the Berkeley Maximum Rock & Roll crowd are the ones who wrote that into the manifesto. So that had nothing to do with punk when I got into it in 1980. Nobody ever thought about that stuff - they never thought about "Oh, that band wants a drum riser, they're rock stars." It was never that complicated. Nobody ever thought about it. DJ: Do you think they get pissed off when too many people start to like "their" band - like it's not an exclusive club anymore? Sam: That's part of it. The guy from Offspring - Dexter or whatever - made a good point when he said the punk attitude has become really elitist - even more so. It used to be if you had long hair you weren't allowed to come to the shows and stuff, but it's even more so now. It's like the people who listen to this music now seem to hate everybody, but they don't hate them for the right reasons. They just look down on everybody like they're less intelligent or something. It's messed up. Shaun: Well, then, it should be fun for me tonight. I've been listening to punk for over 20 years, which is at least four or five years longer than most of these people have been alive. My daughter said it was cool that I was going to RKCNDY and all, but I should be ready for everybody to stare at me 'cause I'd be the oldest person in the room. What kind of audiences do you get at shows? John: Depends on where we are. We get a lot of the 16-22 year old crowd. On the east coast we get a lot of straight edge people mixed in with some punks. We played with Bad Religion at the Palace and that was our crowd mixed with their crowd and the reaction was about equal. Their crowd was older - mostly over 21 - so it's mixed across the board. Shaun: I ask because you have a traditional kind of sound I think would appeal to people like me who were there for the early days of punk, which is not true of all the bands out there today. Sam: You're right, it seems like we would appeal to an older audience more, but just the fact that we're on Epitaph Records is a factor that contributes to our audience being so young. We're looked at as an Epitaph band and lumped in with bands whose crowd is younger, so they come to our shows too. Shaun: One of the elements of that "traditional" sound is some social conscience in the music, which used to be prevelant in punk but isn't so much any more. And there's a sense of humor in the music that I really appreciate. John: You've just named all the elements that I know as punk rock. When I went to shows in the early eighties hard core and punk was one and the same thing, and now some of the punk bands are a lot faster than we are - we tend to be, I hate to use the word pop but what is punk but fast pop in some ways. Shaun: Three chords with your foot on the gas... John: We're a lot more melodic than some of the bands. We do songs that are slower and like that. I never thought the word traditional would apply to punk, but we listen to a lot of bands that are more traditional, from the early eighties and stuff. Now stuff has got this really fast galloping beat and the image of the people is significantly different than it was when I was going to shows 16 years ago. The danger element has been to some extent removed. It used to be, when I went to a gig I never knew if I'd be coming back home or not. It was, "Well, let's see what happens tonight. Maybe I'll get home, maybe I won't." It could be the police or somebody waiting for us outside or whatever. Shaun: My memory of LA in the early days was that one of the most adventurous things you could do was go to a Black Flag show - they were invariably busted - every show was busted. John: Yeah, until around the period Rollins joined... DJ: Are there still scenes reminiscient of that anywhere that you've played? Places where the scene is still more alive than elsewhere? Sam: Where I live in Tampa the violence is still pretty prevelant. It's not like today where at a live show you may see people shooting each other, but it's a lot more like an old punk show 'cause there's always a fight. No matter who plays, there's a always a big fight. The music scene isn't as happening, but when a band comes through it seems to me like it's like it was back then. John: That's totally true in Florida, and in some other places, but the one thing we mentioned earlier was humor, and even in the early eighties when all this crazy stuff was going down, there was still a sense of humor about it. You know what I mean? Like, I remember one time this bouncer at the Dead Kennedys beat some kid up and like 20 punks just surrounded the guy and he started pleading for his life. They pulled his pants down and stuck his head in the toilet - they didn't even beat him up, they just totally humiliated him. It seems kind of sick to say it's funny, but it was funny to me back then. Shaun: Humor was integral. The way people were looking and acting. If you couldn't laugh at yourself doing that, you had serious emotional problems. John: Exactly. If you're walking down the street with a green mohawk, you've gotta have a sense of humor. Shaun: No mohawks in this band... John: No. DJ: One of your labelmates, Rancid, has gone far with that... Sam: Yeah, that's how they went... John: They're a really good band. I listen to their music and I totally hear the stuff I listened to before, what I know as punk rock. They look like that, but they back it up, and they were around before. Shaun: So the band has an unofficial website - is there an official one? John: No, not yet. Shaun: And a fan just put one together? Sam: Yeah, I have a computer and I e-mail the guy back and forth. His name is Shawn and he lives in Canada. He did it on his own and I just stumbled onto it, but I help him out with it some now. Shaun: So you're into the whole internet thing? John: If I get into it I'll never get out of it. Shaun: I understand - I'm a junkie myself and as the editor of a webzine DJ probably spends 15 hours a day on line. Sam: I think it's a cool thing. I really dig it, and I'm kind of hooked on it. DJ: You guys ever listen to ska? You were talking about Rancid... John: Yeah, I listen to ska. I like Rancid's stuff, but that's like rock to me. I like really pure ska, the sixties stuff like Prince Walker, and Madness, the Specials - that next wave from the early eighties. I keep going back to the early eighties. Sam: It seems to me that they've already done pretty much everything that can be done with that form of music and the bands that come out today just really bore me. It seems like they just do the same song over and over, but that's just my opinion. I don't listen to anything that came out after, like, '84 as far as ska... Shaun: Of course people say the same thing about punk bands. Sam: Yeah, that's right. I should cut some slack because people who don't listen to the music say it all sounds the same to them, so that could be my problem too. But what really bothers me is the Ska Corps that people have come up with now. Like, the Bosstones, they're okay, but there are about 30 bands trying to do the same thing - mix melodic punk and ska and it's so unoriginal sounding to me. Shaun: So there have been a lot of personnel changes in the band since the beginning. How has the sound developed? Sam: There are different songwriters in the band now. Dave's really the only guy who's been in the band for the first and last albums and there's new writers now and Dave's writing has changed. I think it's definitely more advanced than the first album. Shaun: Did you write "Gruesome Gary" or is that one of Dave's? Sam: That's Dave's. Shaun: Is he a real guy? Would he know himself if he heard that song? Sam: No, I think Dave made him up as a universal bully. Shaun: Well, I think I knew that guy... John: Yeah, I remember when I cut my hair and I went to school the next day, 'cause the day before I had really long hair and a Led Zeppelin t-shirt and the next day I had an anarchy shirt and my head was shaved. All my stoner friends pretended they didn't know me. I had a baseball cap on when I got there, and a flannel shirt, and flair bottoms over my boots. I went to the bathroom and threw the cap in the garbage, tucked in my pants and opened my shirt to show the big circle-A on my t-shirt. I went into the hallway and it was like "He's a punk!" And the football team chased me into the middle of the quad and put me in a garbage can. They poured orange juice over my head and kept punching me and I knew I'd done the right thing. Shaun: Heh. The difference between when you and I went to hight school was that for us the haircut was required to get along with the football team. It was the stoners they beat up. So you just made the change over night? John: Yeah, I didn't have much of a New Wave period. It lasted about an hour. Shaun: Actually, punk and New Wave were once the same thing - or it was punk, then New Wave, then punk again. John: Everything was all punk. Like, Elvis Costello was punk. Television was punk. Blondie was punk. Devo was punk. And with that, you had the Buzzcocks, the Pistols, the Clash, Black Flag, the Circle Jerks, the Adolescents, and it was all together. Because if you listened to any of those people and had a skinny tie or a mohawk or whatever you'd get into a party and they'd beat you up if you tried to drink from the keg. DJ: Did you like the Buzzcocks? John: Oh, I loved the Buzzcocks. DJ: Because there's a little bit of song structure influence... John: Yeah, I love them. They're great. I've seen them three or four times and they sound like the record when they play and they're perfect and they're so professional and they sing great and they're fucking punk. That's punk. DJ: So, wrapping up, is there anyplace you'd like to say fuck you to? Places they've treated you shitty or anything? John: Fuck you Munich, Germany. Boston, get back up to speed and Portland, you're getting better but you've got a lot of work to do. Shaun: But Seattle's terrific, right? John: Oh yeah, Seattle's great. (A voice from behind says "Wait'll you hear what they say tomorrow night.") DJ: Sam, got anything? Sam: There are too many to name, actually. Not all of San Francisco, but the whole Maximum Rock & Roll scene in 'Frisco, and Gillman. Fuck all that shit. John: Yeah, fuck you Gillman and fuck you Bikini Kill. But the PeeChees are awesome. No fuck you to the PeeChees. The "voice from behind" turned out to be founding member, chief songwriter and rythm guitar/lead vocalist, Dave Smalley, who took time to speak with us while John and Sam caught the tail end of the Pluto set. Shaun: So I was asking John and Sam if Gruesome Gary was a real guy... Dave: Gruesome Gary's not his name, but it's based on a real guy. A lot of people identify with that song. Shaun: One of the things I like about many of your songs is that anthem quality... Dave: Yeah, I like writing songs that people sing to. That's something I enjoy. There's a lot of good singers and songwriters out there but it's always nice when the audience can sing along. Shaun: If there's such a thing as a "traditional" punk band... Dave: We're it. With a little bit of mod thrown in. Shaun: Another song I asked about was "True Music." Was making a video really a devastating compromise of principle? Dave: I don't know if I'd use the word devastating, but it was hard because for so long, without even thinking about it, I'd viewed it as a bad thing because I think that MTV has done a lot of bad things. Kids grow up and if they don't see it on MTV they don't think of it as viable or that they'd like it, and of course there are a lot of great bands that don't get on MTV. Shaun: But now you've been on MTV, so is it a good thing? Dave: No, I think it's a mixed thing. I think the main trick is if you're going to make videos, make sure it's the song you love as the artist and make sure you do it your way. I know bands that have spent $100 thousand on their videos and had the record company pick the song. We spend, like, $10 thousand and we pick our song and we pick the director and we pick everything about it. Shaun: How about a video of "True Music"? Think MTV would play it? Dave: Oh man. I don't know. Probably not. You know, the one who played it was Matt Enfield from 120 Minutes and he's been very cool to us. He called me at my house and left a message saying he loved the "Radio Raga" video and he was really nice. Not to say that's where we want to be with our music, but it's nice we did it our way and he accepted it. I don't think we're the kind of band that would ever be in regular rotation on MTV. Shaun: Regular rotation on public access punk rock shows... Dave: That's fine with me. Actually, one of the things I like about making videos is our videos have been in the top 5 in the country on independent stations and that's great with me. DJ: Yeah, I think the first time I heard of Down By Law was on a public access show here called Soundwaves. Dave: That's great. A video show? DJ: Yeah. He plays stuff you'd never see anywhere else. Dave: That's good. That's what public access is all about. It's like college radio. You'll hear Down By Law, then the Bee Gees, then Nick Cave, or the Sex Pistols. Shaun: You're the glue of the band - the guy who was on the first album and the new album... Dave: Yeah, it's coalesced a lot since the early days. I'm definitely the founding member but Sam and John have been in the band for almost four years now, and Danny has been in the band over a year. Shaun: So there were a couple albums real quick and then a little hiatus? Dave: Yeah. I really view starting with "punkrockacademy" as almost a new band in a way. I love all the albums we've made, but I definitely felt it was more like a band once these guys got in there. Shaun: Sam says he's on line a bit. Do you get on the internet at all? Dave: No, I don't. My wife's a designer and she does a lot of computer work but I'm one of those freaks that still writes with a pen. Shaun: I mention it because Cozmik Debris' a webzine and I hope you'll take a look at it. Dave: Well, I get online once in a while. I'll look for it. DJ: You can show the review to people and say "See, even jazz people get it." Shaun's our jazz reviewer. Shaun: Yeah, DJ was trying to expand my horizons, or to reduce his workload, and he put two or three things in [the CD player] and I jumped on this one. It sounded like the stuff I've liked forever. It had that ironically traditional punk sound. Dave: Thanks, that's what we are, for better or worse. The best songwriters are the older ones, generally. Not always, but I think my songwriting, compared with when this band started four or five years ago, has come a long way. Shaun: The guys said that being on Epitaph gives you a young audience but there are a lot of people ten or fifteen years older than that young audience that should listen to this music. It's terrific. Dave: I'd like to be able to reach more people our age and close to our age...[Dave Smalley is 32] Shaun: I've got more than ten years on you. Dave: Well, that's great. I think an older crowd could appreciate a lot of the subtleties in our music. I love the younger kids to love us, I think that's great, but they may not have as much to relate to in terms of life experiences and things that are going on in the music and the lyrics. Shaun: Well, a lot of people who were listening to punk music 20 years ago find that the music has moved away and it's hard to find bands that have the same spirit. It's not really the sound, it's the spirit. Dave: Well, John and I certainly grew up on the Clash and the Jam and the Who. Those bands are part of our blood. For better or worse, we're carrying the torch now that those groups are gone. We picked up the torch where they set it down and hopefully someone will pick it up when we're done. Shaun: But you've got a while to go, right? Dave: I hope so, yeah. I would like to think so. You never can tell, but apparently things are going well. The label is happy and we're happy. DJ: Are most of the people who come to see you pretty educated about the music, like knowing the songs? Dave: Yeah, our crowds are intelligent and pretty knowledgable about the music. We don't get a lot of 15 year olds who just heard about it through the grapevine. Sometimes, but mostly kids come who love the band. With Down By Law, you either love the band or maybe you don't give a shit about it, but most the people who come to see us love it. Shaun: So you could become the Grateful Dead of punk, with a troop of punks following you around the country... Dave: Hey, give those guys credit. They achieved a lot. And they stuck with a thing and had a whole phenomenon build up around it. Of course, I never would have said that when I was seventeen... * * * * We closed with the customary courtesies and Deej and I got into position for what turned out to be a killer set from the band. Many thanks to John, Sam and Dave for their time, to the staff at Epitaph Records for arranging the interview and to the kids in the RKCNDY crowd for letting an old guy rock the night away with them. Down By Law is Sam Williams III, lead guitar; Angry John DiMambro, bass; Dave Smalley, vocals/guitar; and Danny Westman, drums. WANNA WIN A DOWN BY LAW CD??? All you have to do is send e-mail to moonbaby@serv.net with your name, address, phone number, and a quick sentence letting us know that it's Down By Law you're after (we have more than one contest per month, y'know...) and we'll put your name in the big hopper for the December 30th drawing. We'll be drawing 5 names! So that immediately quintupl...quin... gives you FIVE TIMES AS MANY CHANCES TO WIN! Many thanks to Epitaph Records - one of the coolest labels in the known universe - for the free CD's. Only one entry per person. All entries that don't have all the required info will be tossed. WE SWEAR ON A STACK OF VICTORIA'S SECRET CATALOGS THAT WE'D NEVER IN A ZILLION YEARS SELL YOUR NAME TO JUNK MAIL COMPANIES! Or anybody else. Thank you, and good night. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOS FANTASTICO, ASOMBROS, Y MUY MUY LOUD HUEVOS RANCHEROS! Interviewed by DJ Johnson Inside the cover of Huevos Rancheros' latest release, Get Outta Dodge, there is a photo of the band vamping for the camera and having a good time of it. Under the photo, these simple words: "How's Our Driving?" "Driving" is a good word to describe the music of this trio from Calgary, Alberta, Canada. "Intense," "full," and "explosive" would also do nicely. Guitarist Brent Cooper's thick power chords blend perfectly with the high-energy attack of Richie Ranchero (drums) and the new kid in the band, bassist Cantankerous Tom. When they want to, they can slow it down and crank the reverb; but don't call them a surf band, lest you wind up with a guitar broken over your skull. With each new record, Huevos Rancheros' sound becomes tighter and more powerful. With that process comes confidence. Cooper has recently tried out his producing wings with fellow Canadians Chixdiggit, helping them create one of the most energetic and solid albums of the year (their self-titled album on Sub-Pop Records, which was reviewed in the August issue of Cosmik Debris). Recording for Mint Records -- an indie label that puts out some of the coolest records in the biz -- the Rancheros boys continue to do what they love to do: play good ol' rock and roll. Loud. Brent took some time out between road jaunts to answer a few questions for us. * * * * Cosmik: How did you happen to choose to play the type of music you play? Brent: We didn't exactly choose it... we needed something to do and instro seemed like the fastest way to become some sort of productive band, even if productive meant getting paid a case of beer to open for the local U2 cover band. Cosmik: It's not like everyone was doing it... Brent: I knew about the Shadowy Men... and Evan Johns and the H-bombs and the TailGators seemed like good starting points. Richie had never even heard the Shadowy Men until we actually played with them. Cosmik: And then there's the question on everyone's minds: What made you name your band after an egg dish? Brent: Dumb band - Dumb name. Cosmik: Ah hah. A simple formula! When you first started out, did you have trouble getting gigs? Brent: I had been in a few successful (on a local level) bands, as had Richie and Graham, so everybody knew who we were and we had enough contacts to score gigs right away. We would play anywhere for anyone for basically beer and a few bucks at the drop of the hat, so clubs would literally call us the night of a show saying "the blahblahs couldn't make it, can you be on stage in 20 minutes?" Cosmik: How long did it take till you started to develop a following? Brent: We sort of forced ourselves on everybody in every part of the music scene, from hardcore punk to rockabilly, ska, blues and whatever. We must have picked up a few fans at each show 'cause soon we were playing our own shows. Cosmik: Most of your stuff isn't surf, but you get lumped in with the surf bands in conversations and even record bins. Does that bother you at all? Brent: Yeah, 'cause we ain't no stinkin' surf band! I suppose for the average Joe, any band without a singer is a surf band. We can try and try to describe our style, but as soon as we mention "instrumental" or "no vocals," it's like "Oh! the Ventures?" It's just the most obvious reference point. Cosmik: Categorization is such a weird thing in the first place, but I'm surprised you don't get pegged as a rockabilly band more often, especially when you kick out great songs like "Rockin' In The Henhouse." Was rockabilly a big influence on you all as players? Brent: Rockabilly players usually had great guitars and cool sounds, so that's an easy place to look for inspiration. Country music in general is really big in Calgary, so any of that stuff can leak into our music. Rockabilly is generally pretty cool, but remember the great rockabilly revival? I figure the same thing will happen to the surf thing that is going on right now. The crappy bands will get weeded out and the really good ones will survive. The best ones are always the ones who mutate or change or add to the formula - not sticking with nostalgia. Cosmik: Have you always played in three piece bands? You seem real comfortable in that format. Brent: Tom [the new bass guy] and I played in a band or two with another guitar player. One in particular, The Gravity Thugs -- good name, good band -- was great 'cause more guitars meant more volume. In general, though, I prefer to be the only guitar player. There is less confusion on stage and I can get away with more because there isn't another guitar to trip over or compete with. Cosmik: You guys have a huge sound without overdubs. It's an overall thing, but it seems like your tone almost always makes a solid wall, even though the tone itself is vastly different from song to song. Most players only have a few different sounds. How did your catalog of tones develop? Brent: Actually, we do overdub some stuff when we record. On "Dodge," all the guitars were recorded in stereo: two mics, two amps. Sometimes I would use a third amp and blend it in and out during mixing. Live, I almost always use two amps in series -- not in stereo. As for different tones, they mostly come from my hands and the guitar. Live, I hate to change guitars, but I can get a few different sounds from the way that I pick or the volume control on the guitar. In the studio, I use two or three different guitars for different sounds and I'll overdub rhythm or lead parts, as well as Richie overdubbing maracas or tambourine, or like on "Night of the Iguana," the vibraslap. Cosmik: What's the Huevos Rancheros writing process like? Brent: We usually write as a group. For this record Richie and I jammed as a two piece, coming up with basic ideas for songs. When Tom stepped in, we were able to pull it all together. Only once in a while will one of us come up with a whole song. In fact, I don't think it has ever happened. Tom wrote most of "Railroad," but it wasn't until Richie and I Huevosized it that it became a real Huevos song. Cosmik: Once the songs are solid, how do you record them? Do you do a lot of takes, or do you go for quick and spontaneous? Brent: When we record, we try to get a solid live take that can then be worked with. I make the most mistakes, so if Tom and Richie can get a good feeling bed, I'll finish it from there. Songs like "Bar-B-Cutie" are totally live, while "The Lonely Bull" is a real production number where I played two guitar parts AND baritone guitar. The key is getting a good feel to the basic track. If that's all the song needs, then we'll leave it at that. Cosmik: All three of you are credited as producers in the liner notes of your albums. Who does what? Brent: It's up to the band as a whole to decide if something is good or bad or sounds good, etc. Because I worry about the guitars and the "big picture" of a song, I'll usually spend the most time getting the music finished, as well as the mixing. I recently got to be a real producer when I worked with Chixdiggit for their SUBPOP album. Cosmik: Oh yeah! I reviewed that album. One of the most powerful sounds I ever heard. So that wall of sound on Chixdiggit's production is kind of similar to the Huevos sound. How much of the Huevos sound is post-production, and how much is straight off the board? Brent: Our basic sound is straight off the board. If you get the microphones right 90% of the job is done. Cosmik: You have a definite sound. Does that sound come out no matter what you play now, or do you have to work at getting it just right in the studio? Brent: Yeah, we pretty much sound like Huevos no matter what. We work with our engineer to translate the sounds we have and what we wanna get. If you have to work too hard, something's wrong. Maybe drum tuning or mic placement or the type of mic, even. But remember: garbage in - garbage out. Cosmik: Tom Bagley, who does your cover art, has given you an identifiable visual style. The cartoon characters are so distinctive, I think I'd know it was a Huevos Rancheros album even if there was no writing on it. Tell us a little bit about Tom. Brent: Tom is also known as Jackson Phibes or Aliester Hexx or even Riff Wakeman, but he is the mastermind behind The Forbidden Dimension, a great band with ghoulish visuals and a heavy B-movie/Biker/comic book thing. Cosmik: I loved his cover for Get Out Of Dodge. Brent: The cover of Dodge is a great painting! We originally thought of a western scene like the ones inside, but Tom came up with the snake oil salesman "gettin outta dodge." Cosmik: Speaking of Get Out Of Dodge, I really loved what you did with the intro to Sin City on the title track. What made you think to do that? Brent: We all love AC\DC! We had played "Sin City" as our opening song on our last tour and wanted to include it on the record. Cosmik: Are you aware that you guys could pass for AC/DC as long as you only did intros and never did vocals? There might be some money in that, since AC/DC can't pass for AC/DC anymore. Brent: Whattaya mean!!? AC/DC rules. Angus rocks and Malcolm rules. They have the best guitar sounds - not too clean, not too dirty: just right. And they're LOUD. Cosmik: Yeah, I'll go along with that. Get Out Of Dodge seems, to me anyway, to be a bit harder edged than a lot of your previous stuff. Do you agree? Brent: Yes, I agree. We've tightened up the rhythm and bottom end with Tom. He plays a more solid bass style than Graham did, so it makes the whole thing seem heavier. Also, there is none of the lighter sounding stuff on DODGE as there has been on the last two albums. Because the record is short there's no time for filler. Cosmik: The title track is my favorite thing I've ever heard you do. It just rips. Is that song in your live show? Brent: We've being playing that song for a long time now. We recorded a version for the John Peel show when we were in England. Again, the Tom thing helps too. Cosmik: Does it get a lot of response? It seems like it could make dead men mosh. Brent: At all ages shows the kids get into the 2-step\punk rock power chord thing. We get a big mosh pit going, the circle thing and all that. Personally, we would rather see people actually dance or at least pogo than mosh. So far, no dead men. Cosmik: "What A Way To Run A Railroad" is another song that smokes. Gotta ask...how did you come up with that title? Brent: "Railroad" is great song to play live. The title is from Daffy Duck, I think -- just like "Please Pass the Ketchup" is from Daffy Duck. Cosmik: Cool! I guess this is the first time I've thought of Daffy as a solid rock and roll influence. "Smart Bomb" is straight forward, but you managed to get just a hint of surfy white noise in there. Brent: We had to write a song for the Mai Tai records SPY theme compilation. We originally recorded it live in Richie's garage and then added a friend playing organ to the 4-track. When we recorded it for DODGE, I added a second guitar track doing mostly feedback. If you listen closely you can hear one amp with tremolo on one side, and for the second track, it's on the other side doing the other guitar, so you get a wacky stereo effect. Cosmik: I thought it was a great touch closing the set with "The Lonely Bull." That's got to be one of the most beautiful melodies ever. What made you think of covering that one? Is it something you've always played? Brent: We played it a few times just for laughs but couldn't -- and can't -- get it right. So in the studio we had a go of it. The melody is beautiful so we tried to stick it way out front. We left out the happy chords and built up a sloppy but big sounding production number. Sort of a Crazy Horse meets Jack Nitzsche thing. Cosmik: It's just another style among many for you, huh? How about "Rockin' Lafayette," from your Dig In album? That country-swing sounded totally authentic. Were you exposed to much of that style in Calgary? Brent: Sure, there's lots of country in Calgary, but we first heard that song on a rockabilly compilation played by Dave Alvin. Cosmik: What kind of music did you really grow up with? What were the main inspirations? Brent: I grew up with lots of heavy rock -- Alice Cooper, Led Zep, The Who, and like all Canadian teens, Rush. When I was in elementary school, I would listen to the Ventures and Black Sabbath back to back while playing ball hockey. The three of us were all turned on by early punk, especially The Ramones, who are possibly the best band of all time. Tom likes Devo and The Descendants while Richie digs George Jones and Johnny Cash. Cosmik: That makes total sense now that you say it, but I never would have put those influences together in my head and thought of the Huevos sound as a result. Very cool. Calgary has such an interesting music scene, which I've only been learning about for the past year or so. What elements of your sound do you think can be attributed to being from Calgary? Brent: Almost all the Calgary bands are guitar bands, at least the ones we like. Calgary is a bit isolated so we see each others' bands way too much. It's hard not to be influenced by your peers when you see them all the time. We have been around Calgary so long it's like we're no longer a local band. We're a Canadian band now, not just Calgary. Cosmik: Are there any styles of playing you haven't tried yet that you want to try? Brent: We could be really bluesy or really noisy like Sonic Youth. I think we are going to record a single with loud Hammond organ and a 6/8 time signature. Maybe like a Rocket From the Crypt thing. We always figure we can get away with anything as long as it has one foot in rock n roll. Cosmik: What are some of the bands in Calgary these days that you think we should keep an ear out for? Brent: Chixdiggit are tops. Also Forbidden Dimension and Straight, the Von Zippers have a great thing going. We especially like The Curse Of Horseflesh and anything on the RotoFlex label. There are lots and lots of bands. Cosmik: And now, the part of our show where the musicians get to take lots of notes. Equipment time. Give us a rundown of your gear. Brent: Ah! Gear! Tom uses a Fender Precision Bass and an ANCIENT Peavey head with giant silver knobs. It's called "The Power Module." It runs into an old Acoustic 4x12 and sometimes a Marshall 15 incher. Richie uses a set of red sparkle Ludwig drums from the sixties. I usually play through a blackface Vibrolux reverb amp and a blackface Pro Reverb amp with Gretsch or Gibson guitars. Cosmik: How about effects? Brent: I use an Ibanez Tube Screamer and Tom uses a 20-foot cable. Cosmik: Are there any additional effects you use in the studio that you can't use live? Or just don't use live? Brent: We use compression and sometimes cool sounding reverbs on everything in the studio. Sometimes I'll use a little Magnatone amplifier, and I have an old Fender Spring reverb that I used to use exclusively. I retired it in favor of the pair of amps I use now. Cosmik: What gauge strings do you use? Brent: Usually 10 to 54 or 10 to 56. I still have to change them every second or third set. Cosmik: Anything you'd like to say to your fellow musicians out there? Brent: If it isn't loud, it isn't on! Cosmik: Back to Get Out Of Dodge for a minute here... It's an EP, about 18 minutes long, and it's hot as hell. When can we expect the next full length release? Brent: We have to hide out and write a bunch of songs before we commit to another full length. We would like to put out a few singles, maybe, to hone our writing skills and get new material together. Cosmik: What all is going on in your lives right now? Any big deals cookin? Brent: N0 big deals -- yet, we're just pounding along like the millions of other independent bands in the world. We've been pretty lucky just to be able to put out records and tour like we do. People have been good to us, and even without a big deal, we'll keep doing it. Cosmik: You used to say you started this band to get free beer. Did it work? Brent: Oh yeah. Now we'll even pay for the beer if the gig's good enough. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MAL SHARPE - The Weirdness Continues... Interviewed by Ann Arbor interviews. In the early '60s (prior to Candid Camera), Mal Sharpe and his partner James P. Coyle roamed the streets of San Francisco, and later Los Angeles, encountering people and making outrageous proposals to them. These "street encounters" were done with a visible or invisible tape recorder and turned into material for their nightly radio show on KGO. Although well known to San Francisco radio audiences, others in the U.S. had never heard of Coyle and Sharpe. They released two records on the Warner label in the '60s. In 1995 Mal's daughter Jennifer and Henry Rollins released a CD "Coyle & Sharpe On the Loose" on Henry's 213CD label which stimulated new interest in the work of Coyle and Sharpe. I had never heard of Coyle and Sharpe when I was asked to review the "On the Loose" CD by the music director of KFJC radio. I listened to the CD and laughed for an entire week. Mal and I were both nominated for the Tom Donahue awards last year. At the awards ceremony I introduced myself to him and told him that I wanted to do a special on the work of Coyle and Sharpe the next May for KFJC's annual "Month of Mayhem." Preparing for the special involved listening to countless hours of Coyle and Sharpe. At this point Mal acknowledges that I know the work of Coyle and Sharpe better than he does. Our special aired on May 4, 1996; Mal was in the studio with me for all 4 hours. At the end he said that he was convinced that the spirit of James P. Coyle was there too, laughing along with us. This Fall, Mal and his wife Sandra, along with photographer Alex Vertikoff, published a book called "Weird Rooms." When Cosmik Debris invited me to interview Mal, I decided to talk to him about the people whose rooms are shown in the book interleaved with similar topics from his early work with Coyle. At the end, Mal concludes that he had never made the connections from Weird Rooms to his earlier work. * * * WEREWOLF (track 10 on the CD: Coyle & Sharpe On the Loose) Mal Sharpe: This is another in our series "Meet the Celebrity." Every day I bring a famous celebrity on to the streets of San Francisco and introduce him to a passerby. Today I have stopped a young man. May I have your name please? Passerby: Michael Huffman. Sharpe: Michael, I'd like you to meet James P. Coyle. Mr. Coyle is a werewolf. Coyle: Glad to meet you. Can I ask you this question? Have you, yourself, ever had any transformational experiences? Huffman: You'll have to explain that just a little bit better. Coyle: Well insofar as I know, I of course can't view this objectively, I apparently get a certain actual physical change. The physical change is pretty much limited to my face and arms. Where I get an increased burliness and I snarl and I become unmanageable at times. Sharpe: Now you, sir, would you be willing to take this gentleman Mr. Coyle, into your home and contend with this sort of a beast in the evening? Huffman: If I were a citizen here and if I were a civilian, I believe I would do it because I've the experience with these type of people before. Coyle: I have animal capacities, I am actually part wolf. Sharpe: I have seen him go through this transformation. I have seen his face become wolflike. I have seen hair grow out on the front of his face and I have seen large fangs appear and I will swear to this in court. Coyle: I am part wolf-like and I'm not ashamed of it. I am not totally a human being. Maybe you're totally human, but I'm part animal. Huffman: No one is totally human, they've all got animal instincts in them. Sharpe: Could we go through a transformation right now and have Mr. Coyle become a werewolf for you on the street just to prove that he is a werewolf? And we can do it now. Can we do this? Huffman: I don't particularly care to see something like that. Sharpe: Can we go ahead? Huffman: I don't know. I certainly don't have any particular desire to see this. I don't know if it's going to prove anything by becoming a werewolf on the streets or anything. Coyle: I have showed it to the people at the radio station, I'll show it to you. Huffman: I guess it's all right with me. Coyle: May I go through a pre-wolf intensity (***?) Huffman: All right go ahead. Sharpe: I make a wolf sound which brings this out in him and Mr. Coyle will start turning into a werewolf. Are you ready? gr-r-r-r-r-r-r-r (he growls). Now there are some sounds coming from Mr. Coyle, the transformation is beginning! Coyle: (fierce sounding growls) Huffman: That's enough. Sharpe: He is becoming a werewolf isn't he? Huffman: yeah Sharpe: Would you describe his face? Huffman: He's got a very animalistic look. Sharpe: And what else? Huffman: Certainly does. He looks like a wolf. Sharpe: And what would you say about his eyes and his teeth? Huffman: Very animalistic. Sharpe: Do you believe now that he is becoming a werewolf? Huffman: Certainly. Sharpe: You do. Huffman: yeah. Sharpe: Mr. Coyle do you have anything final to say in your wolf state? Coyle: (Growls and starts laughing. Both Coyle and Sharpe lose it laughing.) Sharpe: This is a joke. (laughing) Honestly it is. What did you think? Huffman: It's pretty weird, I'll say that much. It is pretty weird. I thought he was going to attack me. * * * Cosmik: Good morning Mal! Sharpe: Yeah, there we were on the streets of San Francisco in 1963. Those were real people out on Market Street. It's fun to hear my old partner, Jim Coyle, who has now passed away, terrifying this guy out on the street - he really terrified this guy. Cosmik: Was this at Halloween? Sharpe: I can't remember, but everyday was Halloween for Coyle and Sharpe. We were always into bizarre stuff. We had done all this put on stuff, we had done hundreds of things with hidden microphones and we were really into the ethic of never cracking up, never smiling and never letting on that we were putting anybody on. But in this particular sequence, this guy got so terrified you could see it in his eyes. Coyle had a way of making faces that were so realistic and so convincing that he was totally crazy and frightening. That was one of the few times when Coyle and I couldn't help ourselves from starting to laugh at the end of that. Cosmik: We're here to talk about your work with Coyle and also about a new book you've written. Sharpe: The work with Coyle dates back to 1963-64, and some of it can be heard on a CD called "Coyle & Sharpe On the Loose." Just recently my wife Sandra and I, and a photographer named Alex Vertikoff, have done a book called Weird Rooms. We went out and found all these weird people - I think I've been dealing with weird people all my life - who have weird rooms in their homes. A lot of them are right here in the Bay Area. At least all of them are in California. They're just people where you go into their house and you say, "Whoa that's a weird room!" This one guy, Ken Irwin, has this spaceship with thousands of TV sets in his little apartment. He has walls made out of duct tape and fish tanks with piranhas, and thousands of rubber gloves hanging from the ceiling with colonies of algae that he calls "command posts." Cosmik: I'd love to read this piece of the book Did you just take his words and turn them into the text that we see in the book? Sharpe: Yeah. We edited Ken. We would go and look at their room and the photographer, Alex Vertikoff, would photograph it. Then Sandra and I would interview them. The interviews went on longer than what you see in the book, but we condensed the essence of each story. * * * KEN'S SPACESHIP (from Weird Rooms): When I first walked into this apartment, it was just a one-bedroom, 1950s-style place. I had a vision of this space before I moved in. I've had twenty-two other visions that I've built - they've all looked like spaceships. Everything you see in here I built. The walls and cabinets are made out of duct tape - four thousand rolls of gray duct tape. I used thousands of pounds of tin foil. I have sixty-one television sets and twenty-three computers in here. Wiring runs all through the ceiling. I don't drive, so I carried everything over here from a store. One room I call my secondary command center. It has hundreds of plastic gloves filled with water hanging from the ceiling. This creates microsystems of bacteria. You can see the algae growing inside. Each glove is a space colony. I have six robots to protect me from invaders. My kitchen is a laboratory for the glazes I use on ceramic pottery. I have bottles filled with rotten eggs; the bacteria in the eggs starts to expand, and at a certain point the eggs explode like grenades. They stink like hell. I dry out the eggs and grind them into the powders I use in glazes. The glazes are violet and wine colored. My bedroom is a loft. Two secret rooms are underneath the bed. One has a full-sized piano. There's a deeper room that only I know about. In my fish bowls I have piranhas; they won't eat goldfish, but they will eat turkey, duck, and beef. You can see the bones. I have flowers on the ceiling; some are real, some are not. I want the worlds of nature and technology to exist together. If you look out the window from here, all you see are buildings and cars -- very few natural areas where I can go to escape. This is my oasis in the brutal, hostile city. * * * Cosmik: So where did you find this guy? Sharpe: We found him because a lawyer friend of ours was representing Ken. The landlord was trying to throw him out and our friend Jim, the lawyer, was trying to help this guy out, help him stay in the house. Jim is a friend of artists and Ken is an art student and a pretty out there guy. Cosmik: This guy is trying to bring the worlds of technology and nature together. And that kind of reminds me of the "Pescahumanists." Sharpe: In a weird way, this guy reminds me of my old partner Jim Coyle. Here we are 30 years before this still dealing with weird little worlds out on the street. * * * THE PESCAHUMANISTS (Coyle & Sharpe, from the early '60s): Sharpe: Could we have your name sir? Passerby: Mel Dilley. Coyle: A group of people who call themselves "Pescahumanists" that is to say fishpeople have actually given up their humanism and are living as fish off the California coast. Would it be your feeling that they should be prevented from living as fish? Or would you favor interfering in their fish existence? Dilley: Well I don't know. If they're not breaking any laws or doing any harm to anybody. I don't think that people should really put them away or anything like that. Sharpe: What do you mean "put them away?" Dilley: Well, do anything to really prevent them. They're not breaking any laws or anything like that. Coyle: A number of them, even though they have indicated that they are fish, have claimed Social Security benefits. Do you think Social Security benefits should be paid to fishpeople? Dilley: Uh no. Coyle: Why is that? Be honest. Dilley: I just don't see why, because, uh like you say, they're not contributing anything to mankind. They're just going off on their own. Coyle: Who isn't? Dilley: These fishpeople. If they're not contributing anything to mankind, I don't see why they should be drawing Social security I don't think they rate it. Sharpe: Well a lot of them worked for many years here on land and now that they're in the water they're claiming unemployment. A vessel is going out about once every month with unemployment checks dropping it into the water to these fishpeople. Do you think that this practice should be stopped? Dilley: Yeah I think it should, I really do. Coyle: No unemployment checks for pescahumanists. Would you favor joining a group of people who intend to go out on a fishing party, in vessels, in small boats, and are actually going to cast lines into the water with human bait. Would you favor actually fishing for these pescahumanists? And would you join such a fishing party? Dilley: First of all, I wouldn't ever join anything like that. As far as going out and throwing lines over, I say "no" because I don't want to have anything to do with it. Sharpe: What would you see on the boat? What would they be pulling in with these fishing lines? Dilley: These people, I guess. So I say "no" I don't want anything to do with that. I'd never join anything like that. Coyle: You'd never join the fishing party? Or you'd never become a Pescahumanist? Dilley: I'd never become a Pescahumanist. Whatever it is. But I'd never join the fishing party either. I don't really want anything to do with it. Coyle: You wouldn't go out with these people and have human bait on the hooks? Dilley: No I wouldn't. Coyle: Can we tell you something? We're glad to hear that, and I hope you won't be impatient with us. But we ourselves ascribe to a lot of the beliefs of the fish people, and we're out on the street today trying to recruit others. Would you ever consider going back to an aquatic existence, to an existence in which you'd be surrounded by water? Dilley: No I wouldn't. Just uh, this is the way I live, like I live right now and that's the way I like to live. I don't see any reason why I'd want it any other way. Sharpe: You're in the U.S. Navy aren't you? Dilley: I am. Sharpe: And that means that you like the water doesn't it? Dilley: Not that much, no. Sharpe: Wouldn't you want to go underwater for a while? Dilley: No. I can say this: I never even want to consider being one of those fishpeople or anything like that. I just want to be like I am. Sharpe: Don't we look like we are? Aren't we normal looking? Dilley: You sure are. But I still, you know... Coyle: You know that we have this belief. Dilley: I wouldn't consider... I wouldn't want to consider it even. Coyle: Do you know what we consider ourselves to be? Dilley: You mean you? You guys consider yourselves to be fish, so you say. Sharpe: And you could be a fish too! Dilley: But I wouldn't want to, you know I mean... Coyle: Would you give it a chance? Would you come with us just for a brief immersion in our colony? Dilley: Nah. I mean I'm not scared or anything like that, naturally uh it just doesn't interest me. Coyle: What are we asking you to do? Dilley: You're asking me to come down there and act like a fish for a while. Coyle: With others. Dilley: Yeah with others, naturally... Coyle: Who are living as fish. Would you give it a chance? Dilley: No I wouldn't because... I just wouldn't. Coyle: We have with us today another person who felt as you did. Who was opposed to the idea of becoming a fish person. We took him as we did you, we met him on the street, we brought him to our colony and now he has lived as a fish person. Dilley: Yeah well uh, everybody's different. You know, I mean people could change their minds, but knowing myself I'd say I never would. Coyle: We'd like you to meet him. Sharpe: This is Mr. Adams who is one of the leading Pescahumanists in the United States today. Mr. Adams, .... Your name sir? Dilley: Mel Dilley. Sharpe: You are shaking hands now. Adams: Glad to meet you. No, I was very doubtful of this and there are a lot of benefits. Actually I used to be tired all the time You wouldn't believe it, but I'm almost 48 years old! It's made me younger and everything. So, I don't blame you for having your doubts, but a lot of changes have occurred here. We aren't able to smoke there though, I see you've lit a cigarette. But we have other things, we chew kelp and things like that. It's a lot more fun. Sharpe: Where have you traveled as a Pescahumanist? To what parts of the world underwater? Adams: Well, I made my first trip over to Hawaii, and boy I had some doubts at first. But gee, after a while, you listen to the dolphins and... Coyle: Have you found your breathing processes to be difficult under the water? Adams: Actually I have trouble breathing here, now, because I'm used to the other, yes... Coyle: Would you come on a voluntary basis as a fish person? Dilley: No, not even. Coyle: A one month training course, actually five weeks. Dilley: I couldn't do that either because I've got my obligation to the Navy, so you see... Adams: The Navy has helped us with this, actually it's been experimental with them, so they could do away with their submarines and so on like that... strap things to the men's backs and use them for bombs, kind of like a "kamikaze of the sea." Dilley: It's all right, but it don't interest me a bit. Sharpe: You could carry TNT this afternoon. Dilley: Not even. Cosmik: You wouldn't do that for your country? Dilley: I do enough for my country as it is right now. * * * Cosmik: So tell us a bit about the Pescahumanists. Sharpe: Coyle and I used to do so many things like this: Pescahumanists, underground rituals with animals and people and wolverines and bats. Cosmik: Tell us a bit about the mentality in the '60s that caused you to think about some of these things. Sharpe: Well you know this stuff was recorded here in San Francisco in the early '60s. This was before Kennedy was assassinated and the moonshot and all these sorts of things. Pseudoscience had everyone in its sway, it still does, but even then.... Today you can picture someone being half human and half fish. It's kinda getting there in a way, where we're using animal parts like pigs' heart valves... But back then it was purely fantasy to us, it was beyond any kind of reality and that's what appealed to us. Before we went out in the morning we would sit in a coffee shop and come up with concepts to talk about on the street that day. Often it was just things we'd see, fish on the menu and we'd say "fishpeople" and Coyle, who had a great vocabulary, would say "Pescahumanists." We'd go out on the street, stop someone and start to talk about "Pescahumanists." That's how those things happened. Sometimes we would do the same sequence several times over the course of months, you know, we wouldn't get a good victim. So we would begin to develop a kind of plot or a world, the "Pescahumanist" world, things like this in our minds. Then we would just look for a "victim." Cosmik: Was there any way that you associated a particular concept with a particular person? Or was it just whoever you happened to meet that morning? Sharpe: It was whoever we met. Market Street was kind of fun back then. The big cruise ships still came in that were traveling around the world and often they pulled down around the Ferry Building. Often you would get English tourists. Everybody was pretty gullible and we looked pretty straight. All we needed was someone who was willing to talk with us and we were off. People weren't as willing, really, to talk then. Now, everybody is used to microphones and TV cameras. So if you got somebody on the street that wanted to stop and talk to you, usually we could get them involved in something. Cosmik: It seems as though there are some themes that seem to crop up in the book "Weird Rooms" and in your early vignettes. For example, "The Room of Burning Souls." Sharpe: I've never thought about that, Ann. I've just sort of liked this stuff all my life. Here's this guy Billy Shire - he owns a store in Los Angeles that sells a lot of weird artifacts. He's collected all these "animas" which are like the souls burning in hell, they're religious figures. A lot of them come from Mexico. Coyle and I had a sequence called "Living Hell" where we had this pit where you could go down and work in it, there were bats and snakes around your feet and flames. This was a job offer that we did on the streets of San Francisco. Cosmik: Absolutely, we're right in sync. That's exactly what I had planned to play next. Sharpe: That's weird, I'm looking at this picture of the room of burning souls and sure enough there is a Haitian piece of fabric with a snake on it and all these skulls and flames licking around the bottoms of these statues. That's very weird that you point this out. You're weirder than I am, Ann. * * * A LIVING HELL: Sharpe: This is Mal Sharpe with another in the series "Job Opportunities." Every day I bring an employer out on to the street and have him offer a San Franciscan an interesting and novel job. Now I have James P. Coyle with me, our employer of the day, and I've just stopped a young man who we're going to offer a job to. Coyle: I am James P. Coyle and I'm very glad to meet you. Passerby: Same here. Coyle: The nature of the job is, it's a little unusual, just like anything else there are certain risks entailed in it. You would be working down in a pit, in which I have created, through scientific endeavor, I have created intense flame. People throw objects into the flaming pit, you go through, you pick them up, they name the objects and you pick them up and I charge them admission. Passerby: Yeah I think I'd be interested. It's something new and exciting, and I like exciting. Coyle: The reason I ask, I had an employee before, and I will tell you this directly and honestly, he was a little careless, incautious. I gave him specific instructions and he perished. Now I want you to understand this before we get any further. He did perish. Passerby: I understand. Mistakes can happen sometimes. Sharpe: Now as I understand it the death index on this job, they give us a death index, is about 98%. In other words, if you took this job the chance of your actual perishing would be 98% in favor of your perishing. Passerby: That's the chance. I like to take chances. Coyle: What we're trying to do, really, is to create a living hell. Have people pay admission, they look down in the pit, they see you down there, the flames are all around you. There will be 4 maniacs with you and you've got to control them. Passerby: Now wait a minute, I don't understand that, you say 4 maniacs? Coyle: Yes. Passerby: Yeah, you mean I got to tell them what to do, try to keep them together or something like that? Coyle: Yes, exactly - control them and see that they don't interfere with you, because they will. That's what they're going to try to do. They're fully costumed, they're fully protected and they're going to be attacking you and this is part of the attraction. Passerby: Oh I see. It sounds very interesting. Sharpe: Have you worked with maniacs before? Passerby: No, no. Coyle: Have you worked with flame before? Passerby: No, not necessarily. Sharpe: One other aspect, large bats fly through the air. You've seen bats haven't you? Passerby: Yes. Sharpe: These are very large bats with extremely large teeth, from the photo I saw. They'll be swooping down over your head. Would the bats at all deter you from doing your job? Passerby: No I don't think so. If I had a job to do I'd try to do it regardless of the bats or anybody else. Coyle: Now I am... I'll explain the situation to start with, I want to be sure that you can handle the job, I am paying $46 a week, initially. Is this agreeable? Passerby: Sounds okay. Coyle: And I am offering not only the $46, but during the 12 hours that you will be down in the pit every day I will provide nourishment to you. In other words, I will provide one meal during that 12 hour period. Will that be satisfactory? Passerby: Sounds okay. Sharpe: Have you ever consumed bats? Passerby: No I haven't. Coyle: Would you look forward to the idea of actually consuming a bat? Passerby: Eating one? Coyle: Yes. Passerby: I guess so. Sharpe: In other words, your lunch, you go down and open up your little brown paper bag that Mr. Coyle had prepared and inside there would be a bat. You would just prepare it down in the flames. Passerby: Oh I would have to cook it myself? Sharpe: Yeah. Passerby: Ohhohoho no! Coyle: Why? Passerby: Well, if you could cook it for me I wouldn't mind eating it. Coyle: Cook what? Passerby: A bat. As long as I didn't see it cooking, I think I could devour it. Sharpe: Have you ever had any experience with snakes, large snakes? Passerby: No. Sharpe: See the bats actually they're foes down in this pit. The reason why the bats are there is because there are snakes in the pit. The bats attack the snakes and the snakes will be curling around your feet as you're trying to handle the maniacs... Passerby: I'm not scared of snakes though. Sharpe: What? Passerby: I'm not scared of snakes. Coyle: Are you at all, be honest, are you at all afraid of the maniacs? Passerby: No, not really. Coyle: What're you going to do with them if they start attacking you? Passerby: Fight them off. Coyle: And this is what the people pay for. The people who are looking down into the pit pay to see you surrounded by flames, picking up objects that they throw down to you. You'll be attacked by the maniacs and the bats, the snakes will be crawling at your feet. You understand, this is what the people pay for. Passerby: Yes. Well, if they pay to see it, give them their money's worth. Coyle: What I'd like to know is do you fully understand the job? Can you in your own way recapitulate what I've told you about the job, so that we know that you do have an understanding of it. Passerby: Yeah, it seems to me that you want me to work in some kind of a pit. As you say, you're trying to develop a living hell, and in this pit, I wear some sort of a uniform, there be a lot of flames. I have to work with maniacs and watch out for bats flying around, and I'll get one meal a day, I'll be in there for 12 hours and I'