"Big Successes Still To Come"

Interview With Members Of The Central Committee Of The PKK

On November 27, 1997 the Kurdistan Workers Party celebrated the
19th anniversary of its foundation. In 20 breathless years it
developed from a small group to become a mass movement. It is now
a real factor in the Middle East. We interviewed three members of
the Central Committee, Mustafa Karasu, Cemil Bayik and Sakine
Cansiz, about the past 20 years.

Q: Mustafa Karasu, how does it feel to have taken part in a
liberation struggle for 20 years?

Mustafa Karasu: The 19th anniversary of the foundation of the PKK
has a great significance when set against the historic rebellions
of the Kurdish people. These were always short lived and bloodily
repressed within months. The fight of the PKK, which has gone on
for nineteen years, is therefore very significant and exciting.
The years of this struggle were not easy. All the more important
is the fact that in 19 years of the liberation struggle the PKK
achieved major goals and waits on even more important
developments. These nineteen years were the years of preparation.
The real successes are being achieved in the present phase. The
PKK is not just a political party but also a cultural and moral
movement, which has decisively developed the moral values of the
Kurdish people. It embodies a Kurdish philosophy of life. The
PKK's work has an influence not just in the Turkish-occupied
parts of Kurdistan, but in all parts of Kurdistan.

Q: When the PKK was founded on November 27, 1978, the Kurdish
people consisted largely of peasants, but the party was still
called the Kurdistan Workers Party. Was this chance or was it a
conscious decision?

Mustafa Karasu: The PKK represents on the one hand the historic,
and on the other the modern consciousness of the Kurds. Against
the background of all the bloodily suppressed uprisings, a
successful liberation struggle could only be taken up and carried
through by a modern leadership. The peasantry constitutes the
class base of the liberation struggle in Kurdistan. But it must
modernize itself, develop in a contemporary way. The development
of a revolutionary leadership and a socialist ideology provide
the optimum conditions for the best analysis of political
developments. In this way it would be possible for the struggle
to be successful. In this context it is evident that the name
'Kurdistan Workers Party' was a conscious choice. It expresses
the fact that the experiences of defeat do not need to be
repeated. The PKK aimed to lead a contemporary, not a
backward-looking struggle, and lead it to victory. The fact that
the PKK was basing itself on a new class was necessary in order
to avoid going down a historical cul-de-sac and to scientifically
utilize the opportunities presented by a party and a struggle.

Q: It has been shown that leaderships which are unable to shake
off their feudal or petty bourgeois characteristics tend over
time to manoeuvre themselves into an impasse. In contrast, the
ideology of the PKK stands for the future. In the 1990s, when the
existing socialist bloc dissolved, what effect did this have on
your party?

Mustafa Karasu: Of course we regretted the loss of the positive
gains of socialism in this way. But we must note that the
dissolution of the bipolar world did not have a negative effect
on the PKK. On the contrary, with the fall of that system the
political possibilities for the Kurdish movement became greater,
and new patterns opened up.
     One of the most important principles of the PKK is that of
relying on its own strength. That, and its claim not to be
dogmatic, but to understand the development of a thorough-going
analysis, have cleared a path for it. The transitional period,
after the fall of that system, is of great significance for
peoples like the Kurds. At present the balance of forces between
the various powers is unstable. The PKK is trying to make as good
use as possible of this period in order to liberate the Kurdish
people. We can state without fear of contradiction that for the
PKK, 1990 and the ensuing period has been a time of expansion in
relation to the struggle. Since then the PKK has developed
regional and international relations and been active in the field
of diplomacy. However, it will not allow itself to be manipulated
in this process by alien interests. So the PKK looks for genuine
friendships and alliances.

Q: In the ideology of the PKK there has been no doubt about its
ability to pursue effective politics and to develop a
revolutionary morality and way of life. Why, as far as you are
concerned, was it necessary to found a party in 1978?

Mustafa Karasu: Because everything had been taken away from our
people. Humanity was trodden underfoot. As a result, Kurdish
society was characterized by an incredible degree of division and
fragmentation. For this reason a revival of humanity was
essential. The problems could and can now only be overcome
effectively through the organizing work of a party. So to found a
party was an urgent necessity, in order to create a basis on
which the people could organize.

Q: Cemil Bayik, the party and the party leadership are very
closely intertwined in the case of the PKK. Bearing this in mind,
can you tell us how the PKK resembles, and how it differs from,
other Kurdish and non-Kurdish organizations?

Cemil Bayik: The PKK is a party and therefore obviously bears
certain structural resemblances to other parties and
organizations. But we have to say that the PKK is special in that
it is completely different from other parties. You can even say
that the PKK goes beyond being a party in the usual sense of the
word, made up as it is of several component parts. It is a
movement, a way of life. You cannot consider the PKK as just a
party.
     It is wrong to look at the PKK and its leadership
separately, as two different things. The PKK is united with its
leadership in such a way that the name PKK (used to describe the
whole organization) implies its leadership, and visa versa. The
counter revolution has often sought to set one against the other,
in order to shatter this unity. Very damaging methods were used
in these attempts. Although the enemy was never successful in
these attempts, they have never entirely given up. They have
tried it here, in the prisons; it was always their main aim, to
split the leadership from the party. They started campaigns under
the slogan "Yes to the PKK, no to Apo!" But it is not possible to
accept just one part of the whole. Since the beginning of the PKK
right up to this day, the party has been very carefully developed
by our leader Abdullah Ocalan. That is the reality. When the
party was founded, the central leadership met with our approval.
It was often the case in other revolutions that the leadership
crystallizes over time. It was different with the PKK; this must
surely be closely connected with the Kurdish reality. How it
began and developed, and the level it has reached, are very
important. Here lies the difference between the PKK and other
parties.

Q: Many people say the PKK is not democratic. What do you say to
that?

Cemil Bayik: People have been making this accusation against us
for a long time. The PKK is democratic, for the following
reasons: this people, which has been so downtrodden, has in the
short period of the last 19 years developed a new awareness of
itself and taken its place in the political arena. This shows
that the party which has brought this development about must be
democratic. The people have articulated this reality themselves
during the serihildans (uprisings). Have not people cried: "The
PKK is the people and we are the people!" This is but one example
of the acceptance and recognition of the people. Could a party or
leadership that is undemocratic, or inhuman, solicit such
support? No! Only a democratic party and leadership which holds
human values in high esteem and lives by them is able to develop
these values and activate people through them.
     Where can you show me a dictatorship that demanded and
developed human values? Nowhere, because they ascribe no meaning
to human values. Rather, they damage and destroy them. In
Kurdistan, a struggle to obtain the most elementary rights is
being undertaken, and important steps are being taken in the
process. These have been recognized on many sides, even by
Turkey. So these unsustainable accusations have no significance
for us. I might add one thing: no organization, no state has
obtained the level of democracy that prevails in the PKK. Which
organization or state employs the principle of openness in the
way that the PKK does?
     The PKK has not yet reached power, but it still lays bare
its errors and weaknesses. It does not allow itself to be
intimidated by the fear that this openness might be used against
it by its enemies. Quite the contrary: it understands this
principle as a condition of its connection to humanity and to the
people. The PKK carries out its politics very openly, and not
behind closed doors, as is usual for states and organizations.
This principle could only be realized by a movement that is
wholeheartedly attached to democracy and lives by its principles.

Q: The PKK works in various regions, including South Kurdistan.
Is the work in South Kurdistan necessary?

Cemil Bayik: It may well be that we are divided, but we are still
a people and a nation. This division was made against our will.
If other peoples have the right to unity, so do we, the Kurdish
people. It is our legitimate and inalienable right. So the PKK's
activities in South Kurdistan can only be considered natural. The
Kurdish people face the problem of unification. Apart from the
PKK name one other organization that has arisen in the name of
the Kurdish people that has paid the slightest attention to this
point or theorized on it. Even if they have called themselves
national liberation movements they have never concerned
themselves with all the parts of Kurdistan, but confined
themselves to just one part, one region, or even a single clan.
How can you have a national liberation movement which does not
recognize all parts of Kurdistan or does not raise the
consciousness of all layers of society and all religious
communities? The PKK is the first Kurdish organization to
succeed in raising the conscience of the people in all parts of
the nation and genuinely achieve the status of a national
liberation movement.

Q: Did you believe, at the time of the foundation of the party,
that the revolution that would develop in this way, and that you
would have reached the goals you have?

Cemil Bayik: No, neither myself nor my friends believed that so
many advances could be achieved in so short a time. Besides
which, when we took the decision to go to Kurdistan, we had no
idea what awaited us. It was as if we were lunging out in the
dark. We did not know what opportunities would present
themselves, or indeed what development would be at all possible.
Many were of the opinion that the step was too perilous, and that
we should desist. These fears led to some of us turning away.
Only a handful of our people went to face the loneliness and
isolation of the mountains. Our beliefs and hopes grew stronger
when, over a period of time, some positive developments occurred.
Of course our approach in those days cannot in any way be
compared with today. At that time we were still inexperienced and
certainly had no practical knowledge of waging the struggle. As a
consequence we did not understand the political developments
correctly nor were we able to assess them adequately. Maturity
only came with years of struggle. We struggled to overcome
important errors, and negative developments. Today's
reality is something we could not even begin to imagine at the
inception. Both we and the others have now recognized that the
PKK is leading a liberation struggle that is firmly on the road
to victory. President Apo has explained on various occasions that
it is quite possible that the Kurds will be able to claim a peace
for themselves by the year 2000, and we are convinced that this
can be achieved.

Q: How will the fight in South Kurdistan affect the PKK?

Cemil Bayik: In the early years the president made various
assessments which are gradually being borne out. Amongst other
things he stated that the forces of betrayal in Kurdistan would
collapse. At that time this was only a theoretical position, but
now these assessments are gradually being proven in practice. If
the forces of betrayal are not torn out root and branch, success
in the liberation struggle cannot be presumed. The victory of the
liberation struggle may only be predicated by the triumph over
the forces of betrayal. This struggle will be conducted with more
determination than ever.
     The traitors can no longer stand on their own two feet,
which is why the colonial powers are coming to their assistance.
The latter in fact are trying to save themselves by assisting the
traitors. If the struggle is successful the PKK will find itself
increasingly rooted in all sections of the population. It is
because of this development that Turkey, one of the colonial
powers, was forced to march into South Kurdistan. Turkey's
intention was to counter this through military force.
     Moreover, the PKK brings to the fore democratic development
and the question of national unity, which concern the whole
region. In this way the PKK threatens the status quo in the
region and the interests of the imperialists. Naturally these
developments set the imperial powers in the region in motion. The
Turkish invasion that began in May 1997 must be seen in this
context.

Q: The 1982 events in the prison arena plays an important part in
the history of the PKK. How did the resistance in the prisons
affect the PKK?

Sakine Cansiz: It was a significant phase, in which the PKK made
preparations for a comeback, in the thick of enemy attacks on all
fronts. So it was a critical time. In the prisons, the enemy had
a plan, which was to destroy the party by condemning and
destroying the PKK prisoners. Against this plan the prison
resistance came into being in a manner which was in the true
spirit of the PKK. In spite of the enemy attacks the PKK was able
to protect and strengthen its cadres, and by the same token the
correctness of the PKK ideology and the commitment to the
struggle was justified. The people identified with this struggle.
The influence spread outward and affected the party's preparation
for the future. You can see how in this context the resistance in
the prisons had its place, and set its stamp on the liberation
struggle.

Q: I would like to return to the very early years 1978/1979. As
very few women were members of the PKK at this time, was it
difficult for a woman to become a PKK cadre?

Sakine Cansiz: From the beginning the PKK's policy on women
attracted and animated women with its clear political and
ideological approach. There were of course strong elements within
society which tried to hinder the awakening of women. There were
problems with families, social pressure, and beyond that the fact
that the system incorporated an institutionalized oppression. The
PKK's attractive power only worked more strongly on me because of
these obstacles. In the early years there were no barriers inside
the PKK to interfere with the women's struggle or to prevent them
from developing their abilities. Of course, the approach was
sometimes limited, but there were no difficulties that could
concretely hinder the struggle. The difficulties in relation to
women were not in evidence then. There were the general problems
of the struggle which presented particular difficulties and had
to be overcome by the women as by the men. Of course there were
aspects that were disadvantageous to women, but these problems
were resolved. The PKK empowered and boosted the morale of the
women so that they were better able to work through and overcome
difficulties.

Q: The flow of women into the PKK lessened with the serihildan
[Kurdish word for uprising - ed.] of 1990. Are the women really
equal within the PKK? Are women represented in all areas of the
struggle, both politically and ideologically?

Sakine Cansiz: The PKK's policy towards women is very important.
It is dealt with carefully and adjusted in practical ways. Women
are not drawn into joining the struggle as a token gesture or
viewed as a showpiece. The party has drawn women into the life
and the organization of the party and into the movement in a
practical manner. So the same conditions and rights apply to
women as to men. This can be seen in the PKK's practices. As
already stated there is a historical inequality within our
society, which is deeply rooted. This cannot be removed
overnight. But what is more important in the face of this fact is
that the PKK has achieved important advances in this area. The
PKK has developed the awareness of humanity in the people in
general and in men and women, too. The answer to your
question as to whether or not the problem has been completely
overcome must be answered in the negative. There continue to be
shortcomings in this area, the practical administration of
ideology continues to remain an obstacle in our path. The
president of the party is very concerned about resolving this
question. The resolution of this problem depends on both the men
and the women committing themselves to overcoming their
traditional roles. In other countries there have been women who
have obtained their rights. This has not been the case in
Kurdistan. Before the liberation struggle neither men nor women
had an identity. There was not even a national identity. It is
very significant that the PKK has tackled the question of women
not just theoretically but with concrete measures to resolve this
problem. It was also important that women were involved in the
PKK and its policy making right from the start. Because of this
they were able to develop their own independent methods, which
enabled them to organize and develop their own army. These were,
and remain, important tools for overcoming the great inequalities
that exist and they will be essential for the attainment of their
liberation.
     These goals have, to a large extent, been taken on board by
the PKK. Both sexes have expectations. To take this into account
is very important when trying to build an egalitarian society for
both men and woman. We have to pay great attention to their needs
and act on their expectations.

Q: Is there any guarantee that women will not be sent back to the
home after the revolution?

Sakine Cansiz: In Kurdistan there is no basis for such a backward
step. But having said that, there are even today voices that
speak out against the participation of women in the revolution
and they are against the liberation of women. So far these
reactionary attitudes have been unsuccessful. The PKK sees the
women's revolution as an integral part of the Kurdish revolution.
This is not just a theoretical concept, but a real change that is
taking place in everyday life. We don't look at the women's
question in a restrictive way: as far as we are concerned it is
directly connected to the national liberation struggle. The
women's question is also the question of the liberation of the
Kurdish people. So women and men have important tasks to
accomplish. If women confront this problem in the correct way,
understand their special position and develop themselves, and if
these ideas assist the PKK to further develop in a revolutionary
direction, no man will ever dare to advance the old reactionary
demands and attitudes.
     It is time we learned from the mistakes of other revolutions
where women were forced to return to their homes. The last
experience we have had of this was under the "real socialism" or
"actually existing socialism" in the Soviet Union. The reason for
this was that women failed to develop themselves into a strong
social force. The women were not able to become actively involved
with politics. Therefore they missed their chance to be a
significant force in the revolution. In the PKK we strive to
learn from this experience in the liberation of our women too.
     We have to admit that reactionary attitudes still exist
among our men and women and will continue to exist in the future
until, through a relentless struggle, we overcome them.

(Source: Kurdistan Report #27 - September-November 1998)