**************** *** 03-20-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu cc: Subject: Gods Player and Storyteller -------- Come on, folks! Say something?!?! *Last Dancer Spoilers Follow* Ok. Since The God of Players and Storyteller have the same symbol on their chest, does that mean they both belong to "United Earth Intelligence" (what was written on the outfit of the God of Players in Dvan's Story) I'm guessing that both storyteller and camber were originally with UEI, but that camber went renegade, as the greatest player ever, that is refered to somewhere in tLD... Am I forgeting anything here? **************** *** 03-20-94 *** **************** From: dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu (dann cutter) To: continuing-time@umich.edu cc: Subject: the Ring?? -------- Any body have a copy they want to sell me??? Saw 'The Long Run' completely transcribed on disk the other day... wonder how long before other books start pooping up... :-) _______________________________________________________________ Dann Cutter Stellar Enterprises / dcutter@oregon.uoregon.edu **************** *** 03-20-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu cc: Subject: Re: Gods Player and Storyteller -------- >*Last Dancer Spoilers Follow* >Ok. Since The God of Players and Storyteller have the same >symbol on their chest, does that mean they both belong to >"United Earth Intelligence" (what was written on the >outfit of the God of Players in Dvan's Story) Yes. Both are Nightfaces, it seems. Although why Storyteller wears white (when, I gather, black is the more traditional color) is beyond me. But, then, neither Storyteller nor Camber are stricly human, are they? >I'm guessing that both storyteller and camber >were originally with UEI, but that camber went >renegade, as the greatest player ever, that >is refered to somewhere in tLD... Huh? I don't remember that... Camber is the "renegade God of Players," but what kind of Players? Webdancers, like Trent? Or something else? Sean. **************** *** 03-20-94 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk moran) cc: windsorw@cs.tamu.edu (windsor d williams) Subject: "Players" -------- Sorry about the lack of response, but I (and probably a lot of other people) have been off-line (Spring Break, you know). Anyway, on this "players" business: I like the comment by (I think it was, sorry if not) sef@kithrup.com, that Camber being "God of Players" may not mean players in the sense of webdancers. It might, but I think it's meant in a broader sense. When Trent (don't have the exact quote handy) expresses his desire to be a Player, I don't think he means it in the sense of just being a very good webdancer. "Player" seems to imply something more - a person who _means_ something, who has an effect beyond just the web. Consider his donations to the food bank, his personal ethics on who he will and will not steal from, his interest in issues like the Link; Trent is interested in more than just being a "presence" in the web. Although Trent is (obviously!) unique, I think this sort of thing is what is meant be a "Player" - someone who affects bigger issues. In this sense, one could be a player without being a webdancer at all, and vice versa. Sorry if this rambled - still recovering from too much sun. Windsor **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "david f. paulsen" To: windsor d williams , continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books Return-Receipt-To: "David F. Paulsen" Priority: normal X-Mailer: WinPMail v1.0 (R1) -------- >From: Windsor D Williams >Subject: Getting the books >To: continuing-time@umich.edu (DK_Moran list) >Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 02:13:59 -0600 (CST) [...] > I managed to come up with some copies of Moran's > books which I would be willing to part with, if anyone is interested. I > would prefer to make a trade for a copy of _Emerald Eyes_ (which I > haven't been able to find in well over a year of looking), [...] I, also, would love to read _Emerald Eyes_, but have been unable to find a copy in +/- 3 years of searching. If somebody does have a copy, how possible would it be to (shudder) transcribe it to ascii and upload it to an FTPable locale? I know other great books are available over the net in just this fashion, and I've wondered how it was done: tag-teams of crazed typists, massed arrays of bed-scanners with OCR software, or...? This is probably a silly idea, and a violation of copyright law besides, but they can't lock me up for thinking it aloud, eh? :-) > Windsor David **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: dpaulsen@ices.tdh.texas.gov cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- >If somebody does have a copy, >how possible would it be to (shudder) transcribe it to ascii and upload it >to an FTPable locale? isn't this illegal? mike **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: Getting the books -------- Greetings, felloe Moran fans! If anyone is still on this list, that is...been pretty quiet lately. Anyway, to business. During my recent Spring Break, I had the chance to scrounge through several used books stores. I managed to come up with some copies of Moran's books which I would be willing to part with, if anyone is interested. I would prefer to make a trade for a copy of _Emerald Eyes_ (which I haven't been able to find in well over a year of looking), if anyone has a copy to spare. If not, I would be happy to send them to fellow Moran enthusiasts for my cost + postage + a few bucks. I have: 1 copy of _The Long Run_, decent if somewhat battered condition 1 copy of _The Armegeddon Blues_, in good condition (and the real find) 1 copy of _The Ring_, hardcover obviously, in good condition, with dust jacket I would definitely prefer to arrange a trade including a copy of _Emerald Eyes_ if possible (why can't I find a copy of it? I've managed to find at least two of all his other stuff!), but other offers will be considered. On another topic, are we still supposed to be on track for the next book late this year? I haven't heard anything recently...does anyone have fresh news? Windsor **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: marcus eubanks To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Nice though having the books in ascii form at an FTP site somewhere might be, it most assuredly *is* a copyright violation. We'd be doing Mr. Moran a disservice by pirateing his work. Marcus Eubanks (n3etr) Temple University School of Medicine 1996 Philadelphia, PA USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe in an afterbirth. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "david f. paulsen" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books Priority: normal X-Mailer: WinPMail v1.0 (R1) -------- >Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 11:46:05 -0500 (EST) >From: Marcus Eubanks > >Nice though having the books in ascii form at an FTP site somewhere >might be, it most assuredly *is* a copyright violation. We'd be doing >Mr. Moran a disservice by pirateing his work. > >Marcus Eubanks (n3etr) > Temple University School of >Medicine 1996 Philadelphia, PA USA This is probably futile, but I'd like to head this off as soon as possible: I was *NOT* suggesting that anybody actually do this, ie upload ascii versions of Moran's work to an FTP site. I was just thinking out loud about how *other* projects like that were accomplished. I mean, the feat itself would be pretty incredible. I was not serious. There were smiley faces. I believe I even said it was illegal in my original note. I'd dearly love to read _Emerald Eyes_, but not at the expense of the man who wrote it. Is that clear enough? David **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: "david f. paulsen" cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- More constructively, sending mail to Bantam ought to solve this. I'm almost willing to boycott Bantam books until they decide to reprint Emerald Eyes and The Long Run. Piaw "I don't want to die, sometimes I wish I'd never been born at all!" --- Bohemian Rhapsody, Queen. "A Night at the Opera." **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" sender: "j.c. duval" reply-to: "j.c. duval" To: "david f. paulsen" cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Ever heard of Rockeffeller Plaza(sp?)? Every year, they close it off for a day or so because if they don't, ownership will revert to the government. I believe books not in print for a certain number of years should revert to the (electronic) public domain. DKM himself has suggested some of his future work may be in that format. BTW: how can DKM lose any money if you can't find it? Let's all blame Bantam for the morons that they are for not reprinting the series. As for the Ring..well let's not start that:). Bruce Sterling's "The Hacker Crackdown" is now available legally, as far as I know, on the net. I am not advocating doing anything illegal. I am simply saying that this self-righteous attitudes have no place on a list about cyperpunk books. I firmly believe that DKM stands for the same values as the EFF. Would Trent have objected?:) "On there was a thief, and this thief was God." **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- *sigh* People who don't know and understand copyright law should not be discussing it as if they did. Instead, they should go out to the nearest bookstore or public library and get a good introductory book on the subject (there are quite a few). >Ever heard of Rockeffeller Plaza(sp?)? Every year, they close it off for a >day or so because if they don't, ownership will revert to the government. They do this because an old and accepted property (pun unintentional) of real estate (land, that is) is that if it is open to the public, and the public believes that it is public property, and the owners make no attempt to assert their ownership, then, after a certain amount of time, it reverts to becoming public property. The practice of homesteading is one variant of this, I believe. (However, I do not understand real property laws as well as I do intellectual property laws.) As a result, once every certain period, the owners have to remind the public of that. Here in the Bay Area, the owners of the Stanford Campus have one day, every year or four, where they set up guards to stop people coming in and let them know they are entering private property. >I believe books not in print for a certain number of years should revert >to the (electronic) public domain. That's nice. It's also extremely naive. Not publishing a work is as much a property of ownership as publishing it is. If the owner of a copyright chooses to not publish it for the entire 75 years that a copyright lasts, that is their right, and there are ofttimes good reasons to do so. (CBS, for example, has stated it will never show the old Amos&Andy series, because they consider it would be so offensive. If they did not own the copyright on it, they could not prevent anyone [who had a copy somewhere, and, yes, there are people who do] from showing it, selling it, or whatever.) Copyrights run out after 75 years. Also, in the case of publishers and authors, most contracts are written with certain time limits -- that is, unless it is renewed, after a certain amount of time (25 years?), the rights to publish revert back to the author, who may choose to sell them to someone else. >BTW: how can DKM lose any money if you >can't find it? More naivety. If a copyrighted work is allowed, at any point, to be copied without the author's permission, and the author (or owner of the copyright, or the owner's agent [i.e., lawyer]) does not do something to defend that copyright, the copyright, for all intents and purposes, is lost. Meaning that anyone can take all or part of the work and publish it as their own. Or take the characters in it and incorporate them into their own works. Etc. And any of that would cause DKM to lose money, by losing the rights to sell copies of the work at a later date, and also by allowing his world and characters to be used by anyone who wishes to. >Bruce Sterling's "The Hacker Crackdown" is now available legally, as far as >I know, on the net. I am not advocating doing anything illegal. I am simply >saying that this self-righteous attitudes have no place on a list about >cyperpunk books. I firmly believe that DKM stands for the same values as >the EFF. Bruce Sterling fought long and hard to have that happen, and it only happened after the book had been out for a quite a while, and sales had past their peak. Bruce Sterling is also a Famous Author, and can get away with such things, because his publishers know that any book that comes out with his name on it will sell copies. Other authors have done the same (e.g., Brendan Kehoe, author of _Zen and the Art of the Internet_). These are very much the exception, and will continue to remain so. The EFF does not advocate, by any means, violating copyrights. The EFF doesn't even advocate authors giving away their livelihood and making their books available on the net for free. Something most members of the EFF do seem to agree will happens is selling books, stories, and articles over the net, where you will pay for your copy in electronic form, just as you do now for it in printed form. >From your statement, I believe you do not understand what the EFF stands for, its motives, or what it does. I would suggest you find out more about them. DKM may very well stand "for the same values as the EFF"; I suspect he does. However, I also suspect I am better informed about the EFF than you are. I would also suggest you ask DKM about his value and thoughts before you start trying to act or advocate actions based on them. Sean. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: noah k scarr To: "david f. paulsen" , piaw@cs.washington.edu cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Excerpts from dkm: 31-Mar-94 Re: Getting the books by piaw@cs.washington.edu >More constructively, sending mail to Bantam ought to solve this. I'm >almost willing to boycott Bantam books until they decide to reprint >Emerald Eyes and The Long Run. What's their address? I _will_ boycott their books (now that I've already bought _The_Last_Dancer_)... And no laughing at my .project... Noah K. Scarr ns2v+@andrew.cmu.edu Mellon College of Science Carnegie Mellon University **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Threatening Bantam with boycotting them unless they republish some books is not likely to work: you will come off as either a jerk, an extremist (by definition, in the minority), or as a blathering fool, none of which will get them to listen. Instead, send mail to them and tell them that if they were to republish the books in question you, at least, would be on a waiting list to buy them. Then, find your local neighborhood bookstores, and start calling them and asking for the book. If, like me, you are friendly with the owner of a small store (the store I go to is a F/SF/Mystery bookstore, small, but the owner carries a lot of weight because of the specialty), see if you can get them to cooperate and put some pressure on the publisher to re-issue the books. Only as a last resort, after you've tried convincing the publisher to republish, and they've told you that they have no intention of ever doing so again, do you start trying to convince people to stop buying from them. And even then, it will almost certainly not work. Sean. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote lots of stuff: > *sigh* > > People who don't know and understand copyright law should not be discussing > it as if they did. Instead, they should go out to the nearest bookstore > or public library and get a good introductory book on the subject (there > are quite a few). Excuse me for not being a lawyer.:). > >I believe books not in print for a certain number of years should revert > >to the (electronic) public domain. > > That's nice. It's also extremely naive. Not publishing a work is as > much a property of ownership as publishing it is. If the owner of a > copyright chooses to not publish it for the entire 75 years that a copyright > lasts, that is their right, and there are ofttimes good reasons to do so. > (CBS, for example, has stated it will never show the old Amos&Andy series, > because they consider it would be so offensive. If they did not own the > copyright on it, they could not prevent anyone [who had a copy somewhere, > and, yes, there are people who do] from showing it, selling it, or > whatever.) > > Copyrights run out after 75 years. Also, in the case of publishers and > authors, most contracts are written with certain time limits -- that is, > unless it is renewed, after a certain amount of time (25 years?), the > rights to publish revert back to the author, who may choose to sell them > to someone else. > > >BTW: how can DKM lose any money if you > >can't find it? > > More naivety. > > If a copyrighted work is allowed, at any point, to be copied without the > author's permission, and the author (or owner of the copyright, or > the owner's agent [i.e., lawyer]) does not do something to defend that > copyright, the copyright, for all intents and purposes, is lost. Meaning > that anyone can take all or part of the work and publish it as their > own. Or take the characters in it and incorporate them into their own > works. Etc. > > And any of that would cause DKM to lose money, by losing the rights to > sell copies of the work at a later date, and also by allowing his world > and characters to be used by anyone who wishes to. > > >Bruce Sterling's "The Hacker Crackdown" is now available legally, as far as > >I know, on the net. I am not advocating doing anything illegal. I am simply > >saying that this self-righteous attitudes have no place on a list about > >cyperpunk books. I firmly believe that DKM stands for the same values as > >the EFF. > > Bruce Sterling fought long and hard to have that happen, and it only happened > after the book had been out for a quite a while, and sales had past their > peak. Bruce Sterling is also a Famous Author, and can get away with such > things, because his publishers know that any book that comes out with his > name on it will sell copies. > > Other authors have done the same (e.g., Brendan Kehoe, author of _Zen and > the Art of the Internet_). These are very much the exception, and will > continue to remain so. > > The EFF does not advocate, by any means, violating copyrights. The EFF > doesn't even advocate authors giving away their livelihood and making > their books available on the net for free. Something most members of > the EFF do seem to agree will happens is selling books, stories, and > articles over the net, where you will pay for your copy in electronic > form, just as you do now for it in printed form. > > >From your statement, I believe you do not understand what the EFF stands > for, its motives, or what it does. I would suggest you find out more about > them. DKM may very well stand "for the same values as the EFF"; I suspect > he does. However, I also suspect I am better informed about the EFF > than you are. > > I would also suggest you ask DKM about his value and thoughts before you > start trying to act or advocate actions based on them. > > Sean. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- Sorry about the last message, my Superdooper walled and freaked me out while writing my reply. On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > *sigh* > > People who don't know and understand copyright law should not be discussing > it as if they did. Instead, they should go out to the nearest bookstore > or public library and get a good introductory book on the subject (there > are quite a few). Sue me for not being a lawyer.:) > >I believe books not in print for a certain number of years should revert > >to the (electronic) public domain. > > That's nice. It's also extremely naive. Not publishing a work is as > much a property of ownership as publishing it is. If the owner of a > copyright chooses to not publish it for the entire 75 years that a copyright > lasts, that is their right, and there are ofttimes good reasons to do so. > Copyrights run out after 75 years. Also, in the case of publishers and > authors, most contracts are written with certain time limits -- that is, > unless it is renewed, after a certain amount of time (25 years?), the > rights to publish revert back to the author, who may choose to sell them > to someone else. Some people are touchy. I was simply reacting to the influx of 'this is illegal' messages. Photocopying manuals without asking the author is illegal and yet your school/teacher/you may have done in it in the past or may still do it. People were reacting to this as if it were a capital crime of the century. Taping a TV show is illegal under a very strict light. The copyright laws are changing or should change, that is all I am saying. > >BTW: how can DKM lose any money if you > >can't find it? > > More naivety. > > If a copyrighted work is allowed, at any point, to be copied without the > author's permission, and the author (or owner of the copyright, or > the owner's agent [i.e., lawyer]) does not do something to defend that > copyright, the copyright, for all intents and purposes, is lost. Meaning > that anyone can take all or part of the work and publish it as their > own. Or take the characters in it and incorporate them into their own > works. Etc. > > And any of that would cause DKM to lose money, by losing the rights to > sell copies of the work at a later date, and also by allowing his world > and characters to be used by anyone who wishes to. All I am suggesting is that perhaps a physical copyright should be replaced by an electronic copyright. The data could the nbe allowed into public domain if the author wished it so. Naive idealism is not all that that bad. In 10-20 years, I could have a scanner/OCR fast enough to make your average paperback into 300k of data in a matter of minutes. How will you protect the author's copyright then? If the software companies cannot protect their products now, imagine how fast 300k of text could get dispersed in the net. > >Bruce Sterling's "The Hacker Crackdown" is now available legally, as far as > >I know, on the net. I am not advocating doing anything illegal. I am simply > >saying that this self-righteous attitudes have no place on a list about > >cyperpunk books. I firmly believe that DKM stands for the same values as > >the EFF. > > Bruce Sterling fought long and hard to have that happen, and it only happened > after the book had been out for a quite a while, and sales had past their > peak. Bruce Sterling is also a Famous Author, and can get away with such > things, because his publishers know that any book that comes out with his > name on it will sell copies. > > Other authors have done the same (e.g., Brendan Kehoe, author of _Zen and > the Art of the Internet_). These are very much the exception, and will > continue to remain so. > > The EFF does not advocate, by any means, violating copyrights. The EFF > doesn't even advocate authors giving away their livelihood and making > their books available on the net for free. Something most members of > the EFF do seem to agree will happens is selling books, stories, and > articles over the net, where you will pay for your copy in electronic > form, just as you do now for it in printed form. > > >From your statement, I believe you do not understand what the EFF stands > for, its motives, or what it does. I would suggest you find out more about > them. DKM may very well stand "for the same values as the EFF"; I suspect > he does. However, I also suspect I am better informed about the EFF > than you are. > > I would also suggest you ask DKM about his value and thoughts before you > start trying to act or advocate actions based on them. > > Sean. I based on my opion of DKM's thoughts and values on his book and the News Release of August 13, 1992. Here is a quotation from that release: "Inevitably all fiction will be available digitally: I'm disinclined to fight the inevitable, even if I thought it a bad thing which I don't." How do you defend the copyright then of such digital information? a global Police-state?:) A local newspaper had an article published with quotes from a Usenet newsgroup. Some people on the net were shocked that their copyright was not respected and the quotes were not attributed to them. My reply was not intended to comment on how the copyright laws are right now but rather on how they will/should be. As for the EFF, if you had read Sterling's book, they defended that Knight Lightning character against (gasp) claims of copyright infringement by AT&T (that's what it came down to in the end). Things are simply not as cut and dried and you make them to be. By the by, have you ever read Daniel Derrida? **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- More idiocy, ignorance, and foolishness. >Photocopying manuals without asking the author is >illegal and yet your school/teacher/you may have done in it in the past >or may still do it. People were reacting to this as if it were a capital >crime of the century. Taping a TV show is illegal under a very >strict light. The copyright laws are changing or should change, that is >all I am saying. Go read a good introduction to copyright law before you claim to understand it. In it, you will find out about this concept called "fair use," which allows educational institutions to get away with a lot. Also, you will also find that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that taping a TV show was legal. But not that you should be bothered with facts. >The data could the nbe allowed into >public domain if the author wished it so. It already can. The author does not wish it so. More importantly, the author has signed away his rights (presumably, again, for a limited period). But, again, why should facts bother you? >I based on my opion of DKM's thoughts and values on his book and the News >Release of August 13, 1992. Here is a quotation from that release: > "Inevitably all fiction will be available digitally: I'm > disinclined to fight the inevitable, even if I thought it a bad thing > which I don't." >How do you defend the copyright then of such digital information? Easy enough. It's been done before, and the methods are improving. I have no desire to lecture about cryptography and digital signatures, and the other viable ways to limit distribution of electronic data, with someone who can't even be bothered to learn anything. >As for the EFF, if you had read Sterling's book, they defended that Knight >Lightning character against (gasp) claims of copyright infringement by >AT&T (that's what it came down to in the end). Things are simply not as >cut and dried and you make them to be. Go check again, idiot. They defended it because the information was available to anyone who wanted it, therefore, he could not have violated a copyright the way AT&T said he did. Now go away; I do not want to heare from you again until you learn some truth about what you're trying to talk about. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: more forged mail -------- >From nowhwere!nobody Thu Mar 31 15:22:35 1994 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa16037; 31 Mar 94 15:22 PST Received: from Postmaster by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:19:16 EST Get a life, you son of a bitch. If you're going to flame somebody that nastily, why don't you just do it to them, so the rest of the world doesn't have to hear about it??? Motherfucker. Go suck some sick sheep's asshole. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: forged mail -------- Any and all forged mail will be forwarded back to the list. If you are so sure of your words, stop hiding. >From nowhwere!nobody Thu Mar 31 15:18:05 1994 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa15959; 31 Mar 94 15:18 PST Received: from Postmaster by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:17:34 EST You are a putx. You shouldn't flame people so hard. Web angels will come and tear you apart. Asshole! **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: more forged mail -------- >From nowhwere!nobody Thu Mar 31 15:24:28 1994 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa16065; 31 Mar 94 15:24 PST Received: from Postmaster by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:24:05 EST You may be smart, but you lack a sense of humor. Killing is wrong, but youshouldn't have been born. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: still more -------- >From nowhwere!nobody Thu Mar 31 15:30:25 1994 Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa16164; 31 Mar 94 15:30 PST Received: from Postmaster by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:30:05 EST You are the fool. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: They have sown the wind and they shall reap the whirlwind. -------- I guess some people really have no manners. >From sef@kithrup.com Thu Mar 31 18:38:16 1994 Message-Id: <9403312338.AA21780@tornade.ERE.UMontreal.CA> Date: Thu Mar 31 15:43:09 PST 1994 From: MAIL-DAEMON@kithrup.com To: duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca Subject: Failed mail Sender: sef@kithrup.com Status: RO Your message could not be delivered due to: Permission denied Your message follows Received: from condor.CC.UMontreal.CA by Kithrup.kithrup.com id aa16449; 31 Mar 94 15:43 PST Received: from eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA by condor.CC.UMontreal.CA with SMTP id AA00153 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for sef@kithrup.com); Thu, 31 Mar 1994 18:37:59 -0500 Received: from tornade.ERE.UMontreal.CA by eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA (920330.SGI/5.17) id AA02055; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:37:58 -0500 Received: by tornade.ERE.UMontreal.CA (920330.SGI/5.17) id AA21772; Thu, 31 Mar 94 18:37:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 18:16:26 -0500 (EST) From: "J.C. DuVal" Subject: Re: Getting the books To: sef@kithrup.com Cc: continuing-time@umich.edu In-Reply-To: <199403312244.RAA26688@totalrecall.rs.itd.umich.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > More idiocy, ignorance, and foolishness. > > >Photocopying manuals without asking the author is > >illegal and yet your school/teacher/you may have done in it in the past > >or may still do it. People were reacting to this as if it were a capital > >crime of the century. Taping a TV show is illegal under a very > >strict light. The copyright laws are changing or should change, that is > >all I am saying. > > Go read a good introduction to copyright law before you claim to understand > it. In it, you will find out about this concept called "fair use," which > allows educational institutions to get away with a lot. Also, you will > also find that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that taping a TV show was > legal. But not that you should be bothered with facts. What an ethnocentric viewpoint. Robert Silverberg got really pissed some time ago because some east european publishers were publishing translations of his work without his consent. Perhaps they should have consulted you on your american conception of a copyright. I'm a Canadian. Can I tape a TV show? > >I based on my opion of DKM's thoughts and values on his book and the News > >Release of August 13, 1992. Here is a quotation from that release: > > "Inevitably all fiction will be available digitally: I'm > > disinclined to fight the inevitable, even if I thought it a bad thing > > which I don't." > >How do you defend the copyright then of such digital information? > > Easy enough. It's been done before, and the methods are improving. I have > no desire to lecture about cryptography and digital signatures, and the > other viable ways to limit distribution of electronic data, with someone > who can't even be bothered to learn anything. Now who is naive? For every encryption/protection ever made, there has always been some hacker/pirate to crack it. Limit the distribution of electronic data? How? I can send you a PGP-encrypted book but once decrypted, you can give it to whoever wants it. I guess we have a budding netcop here. > >As for the EFF, if you had read Sterling's book, they defended that Knight > >Lightning character against (gasp) claims of copyright infringement by > >AT&T (that's what it came down to in the end). Things are simply not as > >cut and dried and you make them to be. > > Go check again, idiot. > > They defended it because the information was available to anyone who wanted > it, therefore, he could not have violated a copyright the way AT&T said > he did. Stooping to name-calling eh? What Knight Lightning did was a 21$, or some other small amount, copyright violation. It was available to anyone who wanted it for a price, however smaller than the one AT&T claimed it to be worth. A NY Times article is worth what 2 cents? Can I reprint it in my local newspaer without paying. KL did not have AT&T's authorisation to reprint the material and it was therefore a copyright violation. > Now go away; I do not want to heare from you again until you learn some > truth about what you're trying to talk about. I prefer manners to truth. I fear anyone who proclaims himself to be holding the truth within his precious breast. I have kept this discussion polite and you have not. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > More idiocy, ignorance, and foolishness. > > >Photocopying manuals without asking the author is > >illegal and yet your school/teacher/you may have done in it in the past > >or may still do it. People were reacting to this as if it were a capital > >crime of the century. Taping a TV show is illegal under a very > >strict light. The copyright laws are changing or should change, that is > >all I am saying. > > Go read a good introduction to copyright law before you claim to understand > it. In it, you will find out about this concept called "fair use," which > allows educational institutions to get away with a lot. Also, you will > also find that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that taping a TV show was > legal. But not that you should be bothered with facts. What an ethnocentric viewpoint. Robert Silverberg got really pissed some time ago because some east european publishers were publishing translations of his work without his consent. Perhaps they should have consulted you on your american conception of a copyright. I'm a Canadian. Can I tape a TV show? > >I based on my opion of DKM's thoughts and values on his book and the News > >Release of August 13, 1992. Here is a quotation from that release: > > "Inevitably all fiction will be available digitally: I'm > > disinclined to fight the inevitable, even if I thought it a bad thing > > which I don't." > >How do you defend the copyright then of such digital information? > > Easy enough. It's been done before, and the methods are improving. I have > no desire to lecture about cryptography and digital signatures, and the > other viable ways to limit distribution of electronic data, with someone > who can't even be bothered to learn anything. Now who is naive? For every encryption/protection ever made, there has always been some hacker/pirate to crack it. Limit the distribution of electronic data? How? I can send you a PGP-encrypted book but once decrypted, you can give it to whoever wants it. I guess we have a budding netcop here. > >As for the EFF, if you had read Sterling's book, they defended that Knight > >Lightning character against (gasp) claims of copyright infringement by > >AT&T (that's what it came down to in the end). Things are simply not as > >cut and dried and you make them to be. > > Go check again, idiot. > > They defended it because the information was available to anyone who wanted > it, therefore, he could not have violated a copyright the way AT&T said > he did. Stooping to name-calling eh? What Knight Lightning did was a 21$, or some other small amount, copyright violation. It was available to anyone who wanted it for a price, however smaller than the one AT&T claimed it to be worth. A NY Times article is worth what 2 cents? Can I reprint it in my local newspaer without paying. KL did not have AT&T's authorisation to reprint the material and it was therefore a copyright violation. > Now go away; I do not want to heare from you again until you learn some > truth about what you're trying to talk about. I prefer manners to truth. I fear anyone who proclaims himself to be holding the truth within his precious breast. I have kept this discussion polite and you have not. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "ian sutherland" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Copyrights in the Continuuing Time? -------- Might I suggest that those of you who want to discuss copyright law do so by e-mail or in some more appropriate forum? I, for one, am on this mailing list to participate (even if only passively :-) in discussions about Moran's work, not about copyright law. Please take it elsewhere. Please don't bother to respond that Moran's work is "cyberpunk" and so discussions of putting books on the net is somehow appropriate. That's way too thin. -- Ian Sutherland Key Software, Inc. ian@chicago.keysoft.com (708)864-1596 **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- I'm actually a fan of boycotts, primarily because I've seen them work (on some local restaurants in this area, for example). It's not necessarily the economic disadvantage, but it's a statement of grave displeasure at a publisher's behavior. In this case, I think Bantam's doing DKM a disservice by: - not promoting his books - not keeping them in print I've loaned my copy of "The Long Run" to friends and family, and the response has uniformly been "this is incredibly good stuff --- why haven't I heard of it?" and "where can I get more?" I've hunted through countless bookstores in both Seattle and the San Francisco Bay Area, to no avail in an attempt to get "Emerald Eyes" (I've finally managed to find a copy through the net, however). I've forked over a lot of money to get a copy of "Armageddon Blues." All of this money could have gone directly to Bantam and DKM. Nearly every specialist SF bookstore I've been to knows of a DKM shortage, and every time I've asked to be put on a "want list" in case a used copy comes in, I'm behind at least one other person who's been to the store and asked for it. Certainly, a letter to Bantam (I'll get the address as soon as my friend returns my copy of "The Last Dancer" and "The Long Run" to me) would be the first order of business --- I'd like to tell their marketing director of the amount of pent-up demand that's out there for DKM. Piaw I'm sick of being trodden on! The Elder Gods say they can make me a man! All it costs is my soul! I'll do it, cuz NOW I'M MAD!!! - Necronomicomics #1, Jack Herman & Jeff Dee **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: _The Man-Spacething War_ -------- In the articles dkm posted to the net, he said that the book he was working on then was _Lord November: The Man-Spacething War_; I've been assuming that it would be published before the next two Trent books. However, the "About the Author" section in Dancer implies that the Trent duology will come out first (in the fall of '94). Am I the only one who thought that? Oh, yeah, and the address for Bantam/Spectra is: Bantam Books 1540 Broadway New York, NY 10036 (that might be then addressed to Spectra c/o Bantam Books, but I'm not sure how that all works.) Sean. **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: "simon b. cardinale" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: ... -------- Of course DKM gets no money when we buy his books used, either. The money goes to the publisher only when the bookstore buys his books from the publisher (there might be another middle-man distributor in there, I don't know.) Anyone in the SF Bay Area should try The Other Change of Hobbit. I got a copy of Emerald Eyes there after a wait of less than a week from the time I put my name on their "whish list." Of course they charged me more than the cover price... Stung even more because I once bought a new copy of Emerald Eyes at the original A Change of Hobbit (in LA) for a DISCOUNT off the cover price... By the way, for those of you who asked me to get you books at Dark Carnival (also in Berkeley) they're out of DKM. I got the last two new copies of The Ring, and someone else got the last two new, signed, permabound Amrmageddon Blues. (I got one, then they brought more out of storage a week later.) They also had 5 (!) copies of Long Run, but I got two and someone else grabbed the other three... Sorry... -Simon PS Sorry I didn't write several of you back sooner... I can't get to Dark Carnival so easily... **************** *** 04-01-94 *** **************** From: rcrowley@sooth.zso.dec.com ("rebecca leann smit crowley") To: continuing-time%umich.edu@inet-gw-3.pa.dec.com Subject: forged email posted to list -------- While I'm not objecting in principle to posting forged email to the list, I could wish that the email itself were more amusing to read. Presumably, the source of this email is on the list, so hopefully this request will reach their eyes, and inspire them to, at least, more imaginative depths, if not actual high-quality flames. Rebecca **************** *** 04-02-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: "simon b. cardinale" cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: ... -------- >Anyone in the SF Bay Area should try The Other Change of Hobbit. I got a >copy of Emerald Eyes there after a wait of less than a week from the time >I put my name on their "whish list." My name's there on their whish list. But there's at least one more guy ahead of me. Get the idea? >I got the last two new copies >of The Ring, and someone else got the last two new, signed, permabound >Amrmageddon Blues. All copies of "The Ring" are now gone at Dark Carnival. I bought 1, someone else on the net bought another. I was the person who bought the last two new, signed, permabound copies of "Armageddon Blues." (Yep, I know enough about bookstores that when I was down in California, I made it a point to visit Berkeley!) > (I got one, then they brought more out of storage a week >later.) They also had 5 (!) copies of Long Run, but I got two and someone >else grabbed the other three... This is a ridiculous situation. If I were DKM, I'd be so pissed I'd switch publishers at once. Time to write Bantam a nasty note. Piaw To know the world one must construct it. - Cesare Pavese **************** *** 04-02-94 *** **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Foolishness -------- My apologies for sending this to everyone on the list. I'm sure most of you understand the basic rules of courtesy and politeness on the net. But obviously a few of those on the mailing list don't understand them, and I'd like to make sure everyone understands what the rules are. This is a mailing list for talking about the works of DKM. It is not for having stupid flame-wars about copyright law. It is not for making sure everyone can read the immature, forged, vulgar, lame flames you have recieved. It is not the place for posting long pieces of mail which bounced when you tried to send it to someone's account; especially when that mail was already sent to the entire group. (And, of course, didn't really belong on the group at all.) Mailing lists depend upon a high signal-to-noise ratio for their survival. Thanks to this recent bout of stupidity, there has been a drastic increase in traffic over the few days, three quarters of which had absolutely no place on this group. Two people unsubscribed at the height of it; a third person (not involved in the flamewar) has asked that a person be removed from the list. The nature of the list makes this impractical; I easily take names off the list, but they can still send mail to list. I don't have the time to make this a moderated group, or the resources to establish some sort of list server. Thus I'm just going to ask that everyone behave. Please, stick to the subject of the group, and be polite --- no vulgarity, no flamewars, no posting of private mail without permission. -Sol **************** *** 04-03-94 *** **************** From: greg wheatley To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: _The Man-Spacething War_ -------- While DKM did say that the next book to be released would be Man Spacething War, it may well be that Bantam Spectra have persuaded him to release the books about Trent first, on the reasoning that Trent is the most popular character in the series so far and it would make sense economically to release books about him in order to appease current readers and also to gain new ones. These will then go on to buy the other 30 or so books in the Continuing Time. It might also be that DKM needs a bit of money after his divorce and so wants to write the really popular books first. Who knows? Regards, Greg P.s.: I did hear a rumour that DKM won't be publishing anything for about two years after the finalisation of his divorce settlement on the grounds that anything published within two years will be adjudged to be partially written while he was still married, but that's just a rumour -- "I don't need to sell my soul... He's already in me." -I Wanna Be Adored, The Stone Roses =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= **************** *** 04-04-94 *** **************** From: solomon foster To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: _The Man-Spacething War_ -------- Greg writes: >While DKM did say that the next book to be released would be Man >Spacething War, it may well be that Bantam Spectra have persuaded him to >release the books about Trent first, on the reasoning that Trent is the >most popular character in the series so far and it would make sense >economically to release books about him in order to appease current >readers and also to gain new ones. These will then go on to buy the >other 30 or so books in the Continuing Time. It might also be that DKM >needs a bit of money after his divorce and so wants to write the really >popular books first. Who knows? Well, a while back I was chatting with someone from the Amber mailing list who claimed to have read thirty pages or so of the Man-Spacething War (as well as all of the Last Dancer, well before it was published). He gave me no reason to suspect he was lying, and certainly seemed to be quite a fan, so I took him at his word. Also understand that, from what I have heard, DKM is loaded, so money probably isn't an issue for him. Also remember that this information comes from Bantam Spectra, which is completely brain-dead. For example, the About the Author in Last Dancer lists Armageddon Blues as a Continuing Time book. Last but not least, Last Dancer was done a long time ago. There has definitely been time for him to write two books by this fall. So I'm hoping that sometime this summer we get Man-Spacething, and then this fall we get Players, Book One. -Sol >P.s.: I did hear a rumour that DKM won't be publishing anything for >about two years after the finalisation of his divorce settlement on the >grounds that anything published within two years will be adjudged to be >partially written while he was still married, but that's just a rumour Where's it from? Seems unlikely --- I mean, even if I'm wrong and he is hard up for money, he'll have more short term if he publishes than if he sits on stuff he's already written. Not to mention that coming out with a new book every three years while letting the old ones go out of print is not the way to build up a loyal base of fans. **************** *** 04-04-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: _The Man-Spacething War_ -------- >Also understand that, from what I have heard, DKM is loaded, so money >probably isn't an issue for him. I don't think so. His main profession is a contractor, however, so if he's any good, he can easily work six months a year. >Also remember that this information comes from Bantam Spectra, which is >completely brain-dead. For example, the About the Author in Last Dancer >lists Armageddon Blues as a Continuing Time book. Well, it *is* shown on the time wheel in the back of the book. So I'll give them a little bit of leeway there; they just got a bit confused. >Last but not least, Last Dancer was done a long time ago. There has >definitely been time for him to write two books by this fall. Again, according to the postings he made, Bantam was waiting to get the first draft of the next book (which, again, I had assumed was Lord November) before they published tLD, because of how much delay there had been between tLR and tLD. Which implies to me that tLD was *not* done a long time ago; rather, only a couple of years ago. (A "long time ago" would have been by late '90.) (In fact, tLD ends with "1989-1992," so I believe that's how long it took to be written.) >So I'm hoping that sometime this summer we get Man-Spacething, and then >this fall we get Players, Book One. Yeah, but I haven't seen it in any "Future Books" listing. Which doesn't mean much, because I didn't see anything about tLD and I was looking. (First proof I had that it was coming was when the proprieter of the bookstore I frequent handed me a readers' copy of _The Last Dancer_ and let me at it. I've asked her to do the same with any other DKM book she gets an advanced copy of.) Sean. **************** *** 04-04-94 *** **************** From: andrew mccoll To: piaw@cs.washington.edu cc: sef@kithrup.com, continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- On Thu, 31 Mar 1994 piaw@cs.washington.edu wrote: > I'm actually a fan of boycotts, primarily because I've seen them work > (on some local restaurants in this area, for example). It's not > necessarily the economic disadvantage, but it's a statement of grave > displeasure at a publisher's behavior. In this case, I think Bantam's > doing DKM a disservice by: > - not promoting his books > - not keeping them in print Hi Sorry for coming in on this topic late. But I was wondering whether anyone has considered sending a copy of this discussion to Bantam. (Minus incriminating headers). Perhaps if they understood that they risk losing all future profits from Emerald Eyes as a result of it being uploaded to the net they might get their shit together and organise a reprint. Of course they may just threaten to sue anyone who does it. But then thats what anonymous mailers are for. Skippy skippy@lethe.uwa.edu.au University of Western Australia "That which does not kill us Perth, Western Australia Must have missed." **************** *** 04-04-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- >But I was wondering whether >anyone has considered sending a copy of this discussion to Bantam. I don't know if that would do any good. Or if it might be acceptable to send a listing of the mailing list (using names, not email addresses, of course) saying that all these people are extremely interested in DKM's books, blah blah blah. Or maybe just a note saying "The following people, from an electronic mailing list devoted to discussing Daniel K. Moran's Continuing Time series, are so willing to get copies of _Emerald Eyes_ and _The Long Run_ that they have scoured the world, and paid for copies to be shipped overseas," and then have a list of everyone who says it's okay to do so. Sean. **************** *** 04-05-94 *** **************** From: "ian sutherland" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Threatening Bantam -------- Why is it that people always want to resort to threats first? Before threatening to violate copyrights and institute boycotts, why not try to put together a letter from people who'd like to see the books reprinted and send it to Bantam? -- Ian Sutherland Key Software, Inc. ian@chicago.keysoft.com (708)864-1596 **************** *** 04-05-94 *** **************** From: andrew mccoll To: sef@kithrup.com cc: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Getting the books -------- > I don't know if that would do any good. Or if it might be acceptable to > send a listing of the mailing list (using names, not email addresses, > of course) saying that all these people are extremely interested in DKM's > books, blah blah blah. It couldnt hurt. skippy@lethe.uwa.edu.au University of Western Australia "That which does not kill us Perth, Western Australia Must have missed." **************** *** 04-05-94 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Threatening Bantam Reply-To: Mike Long Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA X-Attribution: MWL -------- >Date: Mon, 04 Apr 1994 08:24:36 CDT >From: "Ian Sutherland" > >Why is it that people always want to resort to threats >first? Before threatening to violate copyrights and >institute boycotts, why not try to put together a letter >from people who'd like to see the books reprinted and >send it to Bantam? Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is ordering the book directly from the publisher. They may still have a few copies tucked away in a corner in a warehouse somewhere. I remember seeing forms in the back of books for such orders, but I can't find any in the nearest stack at the moment. :-) Usually all you need is the ISBN (trivial) and the price of the book plus a small handling fee. Look around your collections and see if you can find a Bantam book with such a form. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030 Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010 Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog); **************** *** 04-11-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: next question... -------- Any ideas on what the Living Flame is? Sean. **************** *** 04-16-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: the telepaths -------- A couple of points about the telepaths and telepathy, while we're all waiting for the next books to come out :). a) Did everyone notice that telepathy is instantaneous, or at least so much faster than _c_ that it doesn't matter? (When Denice touched Trent's mind in _The Long Run_, while he was on Luna.) b) Carl says that reading minds is painful -- yet none of the telepaths ever show that. Denice is afraid for Trent to touch her, when she's not sure of who he is, and she did not like being touched by what's-her-name, at the end of _Emerald Eyes_ -- but, despite how much we see things from her point of view, we never really see any of the discomfort or pain. So... was Carl exaggerating (or out and out lying?) for PR reasons? Sean. **************** *** 04-16-94 *** **************** From: "mark l. williamson" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: the telepaths -------- sef@kithrup.com writes: >A couple of points about the telepaths and telepathy, while we're all >waiting for the next books to come out :). >a) Did everyone notice that telepathy is instantaneous, or at least so >much faster than _c_ that it doesn't matter? (When Denice touched Trent's >mind in _The Long Run_, while he was on Luna.) It certainly looks that way but if that's the case it means that Denise is a LOT^ more powerful than Carl. In EE he couldn't find Carson when he and the twins were just a few kms away and screened by a few thousand nearby people. >b) Carl says that reading minds is painful -- yet none of the telepaths >ever show that. Denice is afraid for Trent to touch her, when she's not >sure of who he is, and she did not like being touched by what's-her-name, >at the end of _Emerald Eyes_ -- but, despite how much we see things from >her point of view, we never really see any of the discomfort or pain. >So... was Carl exaggerating (or out and out lying?) for PR reasons? I think Carl was refering mostly to the other Telepaths, remember that he was more than a little different from the rest (both mentally due to his early years and he was genetically different from all the other telepaths except for his immediate family). Jany McConnel certainly felt pain, of course that could have been just emotional pain. At least two occasions with Denice come to mind immediately. The time when Denice was leaving Goddess Home and had to 'adjust' Alaya and the time she had to 'adjust' Ichabod while interviewing for the bodyguard position with Ripper. Both times she ends up with apparantly very HEAVY DUTY headaches. Cannot think up any others off the top of my head, but I imagine there are other examples. >Sean. -- Mark mlw@engr.latech.edu **************** *** 04-17-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Emerald Eyes... -------- I finally got a copy of Emerald Eyes and finished it in one sitting. As I read it, I kept getting a feeling of Deja Vu, as though I've read it before. Has it ever been published in a different form? (I could have read a library copy before...) The really impressive thing, now that I've read all of Moran's novel is how good he's become. Emerald Eyes was stilted in parts but still good, but by the time of "The Long Run", Moran had lost all of the stiltedness in his early novels. His style was transparent, easy to read, yet conveyed subtlety well. In "The Last Dancer", he's demonstrated that he's capable of conveying the "inside" of a person as well as the outside, and that's fantastic. Among other things, it's finally been clear to me at an emotional level that Moran's plotted out everything in advance... Unfortunately, Emerald Eyes kinda spoils the suspense of who Denise is going to be attached to for me, as I now know that she's going to be attached to Ripper... I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the next novel... Piaw Time is an illusion perpetrated by the manufacturers of space. - Graffiti **************** *** 04-17-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, piaw@cs.washington.edu Subject: Re: Emerald Eyes... -------- On Sat, 16 Apr 1994 piaw@cs.washington.edu wrote: > Among other things, it's finally been clear to me at an emotional > level that Moran's plotted out everything in advance... > Unfortunately, Emerald Eyes kinda spoils the suspense of who Denise is > going to be attached to for me, as I now know that she's going to be > attached to Ripper... Actually that was clear in tLR as she is mentionned once or twice as Denice Ripper. On p. 338, there's a quotation from The Exodus Bible by Melissa du Bois saying "With the certain exception of Denice Ripper..." I find that EE only makes sens on every level if one has read the two other books. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-17-94 *** **************** From: joel isaac singer To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dkm mailing list) Subject: Emerald Eyes -------- Carl may have been so different from the other telepaths because he was created "en masse" by the Name Storyteller, and not designed gene-by-gene by Suzanne Montigenet. Also, being the first, and the only one around for a fair amount of time, it wouldn't suprise me to know that he had been "experimented" on by the PKF for some years, which shouldn't help his sanity any. The clearest indication is that he didn't get absorbed into the Person the telepaths became just before the end. And I believe that _many_ things we don't really understand in Emerald Eyes will not become apparent until the 20th book or so down the line. Like the reference to the Name Storyteller possibly dying in a library around 3200, or why the weapon designed by the Lady Blue is so deadly. Joel Singer Stanford University jsinger@leland.stanford.edu -- "Gee, Brain, what are we gonna do tonight?" "Same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world!" **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dkm mailing list) Subject: Letter to Bantam -------- After much Procrastinating, I finally got around to writing the letter below... I'll mail it to Bantam on Monday. Piaw ---------------- \documentstyle[regular-margins,11pt]{article} \begin{document} \noindent Dear Sir/Madam, I bought a copy of ``The Long Run'', by Daniel Keys Moran a couple of months back at a used bookstore. My first impression was: ``this is wonderful.'' My second thought was: ``why haven't I heard of Moran before? What else has he written?'' Being a graduate student of computer science, it was a simple matter for me to link to the internet and post my question on a bulletin board devoted to science fiction there. The reply arrived pretty quickly --- he'd written 4 other books, they were all out of print except ``The Last Dancer'', and there was an electronic mailing list devoted to discussions of his work. I bought ``The Last Dancer'', and loved it, and began a long arduous search for the rest of his books. I looked in used book store after used book store --- none of them had ``Emerald Eyes'', ``Armageddon Blues'' or ``The Ring.'' When I asked my name to be put down on their want-list, there was invariably at least one other person ahead of me on the list. My desperation increased a month later when I visited Berkeley and found ``The Ring'' and ``Armageddon Blues'' at high prices (which I gladly paid) but no ``Emerald Eyes.'' I resorted again to posting on the net asking for ``Emerald Eyes.'' Someone was able to produce a copy, and I again gladly paid the price requested, which included shipping from Canada. I am writing this to you to inform you that Daniel Keys Moran is a real find, and to request that you reprint his books if possible, and keep his current books in print. My brothers, my friends and I are now fighting over my tattered copies of ``Emerald Eyes'' and ``The Long Run'', and many of them have expressed a willingness to pay well above the standard paperback price for copies of his now out of print books, as have many others on the internet. \vskip 0.5in \noindent Sincerely, \vskip 0.5in \noindent Piaw Na \\ \noindent 4/16/94 \\ \noindent 5219 16th Ave NE, \\ \noindent Seattle, WA 98105-3414 \end{document} **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: the telepaths -------- b) i thought it was only "deep probes" that were painful. c) (new question)...i am rereading _The Long Run_ and realized that i have no idea who nathan dark-clouds really is. do we know that yet? (these books are the most re-readable books i have ever experienced). mike **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Nathan Dark-Clouds -------- > c) (new question)...i am rereading _The Long Run_ > and realized that i have no idea who nathan dark-clouds > really is. do we know that yet? > In the background on the actual Long Run (The Speedfreaks) in EE, I think it said it was lead by a husband and wife, where the wife was executed and the hubby never found... Something made me think that was him. I don't remember exactly what... Anyone? > > mike > > **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu, patrick@cs.msstate.edu Subject: Re: Nathan Dark-Clouds Reply-To: Mike Long Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA X-Attribution: MWL -------- >From: "Patrick G. Bridges" >Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 9:48:23 CDT > >> c) (new question)...i am rereading _The Long Run_ >> and realized that i have no idea who nathan dark-clouds >> really is. do we know that yet? > >> >In the background on the actual Long Run (The Speedfreaks) in EE, I think it >said it was lead by a husband and wife, where the wife was executed and the >hubby never found... Something made me think that was him. I don't remember >exactly what... Anyone? Reread the part of TLR where Trent and Nathan meet and get to know each other. Nathan's Speedfreak history is explained somewhere in there. If I remember correctly, Trent comes to the conclusion that Nathan is the Speedfreak leader who got away. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030 Analog Devices, SPD Div. FAX: (617)461-3010 Norwood, MA 02062 *this = !opinion(Analog); **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: carol@vega.sidefx.com (carol wang) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: the telepaths -------- sef@kithrup.com writes: =- b) Carl says that reading minds is painful -- yet none of the telepaths =- ever show that. it's not the reading of minds that is painful, it is physical contact with non-telepaths (uncontrolled reading of non-tp?). this is demonstrated a couple of times. denise's "awakening" at the end of EE (don't touch me, it hurts). jany mc's contact with the sandoval (?? bad guy who used a snake to kill one of the telpaths) at a party. they explained that what caused the pain to the telepaths was the guilt that normal people experience. therefore the inconsistency is why denise doesn't suffer pain when touching all the people she does in tLD. trent actually asks her if it would hurt when meet in tLR but she says something along the lines of "you could never hurt me" sorta thing. the other people she touches are: ripper, the kid (oops, major memory loss), his sister, the other last dancer and the hunter. with none of these does she actually have any after-effects. carol **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: continuing-time@umich.edu, carol@vega.sidefx.com (carol wang) Subject: the telepaths -------- >the other people she touches are: ripper, the kid (oops, major memory >loss), his sister, the other last dancer and the hunter. with none of >these does she actually have any after-effects. I assume you mean any *lasting* after-effects. I'd say that getting knocked out for several days after a "touch" would be a hell of an after-effect... (D'van's case) It's just odd to me that she didn't have the same thing happen with Sedon. Piaw "Oh with a mind that renders everything sensitive What chance do I have here? Put an end put an end Put an end to every dream..." --- Kate Bush, "Not this time" **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: piaw@cs.washington.edu To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Hm... -------- So, can anyone suggest reasons why Denise didn't try to "change" David the way she did other humans? It would seem a better solution than killing him... Maybe it's because he's a telepath and can't be "changed"... Piaw Admiration: Our polite recognition of another's resemblance to ourselves. **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: "patrick g. bridges" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, piaw@cs.washington.edu Subject: Re: Hm... -------- > > So, can anyone suggest reasons why Denise didn't try to "change" David > the way she did other humans? It would seem a better solution than > killing him... > > Maybe it's because he's a telepath and can't be "changed"... > Well, there was Carl's quotethat went something like "You're better than they are...", which would have to rankle on David and Denice. Wouldn't he have to know that she was going to kill him (they are telepaths in full contact)? I assumed that he almost (or really) wanted to die... *Shrug* Patrick **************** *** 04-18-94 *** **************** From: dave@tso4a.can.cdc.com (dave weil) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Hm... -------- > > So, can anyone suggest reasons why Denise didn't try to "change" David > > the way she did other humans? It would seem a better solution than > > killing him... > Well, there was Carl's quotethat went something like "You're better than > they are...", which would have to rankle on David and Denice. > Wouldn't he have to know that she was going to kill him (they are telepaths in > full contact)? I assumed that he almost (or really) wanted to die... > *Shrug* I got the distinct impression that David wanted to die; didn't want to live any longer with what he'd become. And as for Denice going along with it - if you truly love someone, know what it is they most want because you can see into his/her head, and are able to fulfill that wish, are you going to deny him/her that? And as for "changing" David, well, he wouldn't be David anymore, would he? (Even assuming the "change" can overcome a wire-head addiction.) It startled me when I first read it, but now it seems marvelously apt. - Dave **************** *** 04-20-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Nathan Dark-Clouds -------- >Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 10:58:31 EDT >From: Mike Long > >>From: "Patrick G. Bridges" >>Date: Mon, 18 Apr 94 9:48:23 CDT >> >>> c) (new question)...i am rereading _The Long Run_ >>> and realized that i have no idea who nathan dark-clouds >>> really is. do we know that yet? >> >>> >>In the background on the actual Long Run (The Speedfreaks) in EE, I think it >>said it was lead by a husband and wife, where the wife was executed and the >>hubby never found... Something made me think that was him. I don't remember >>exactly what... Anyone? > >Reread the part of TLR where Trent and Nathan meet and get to know >each other. Nathan's Speedfreak history is explained somewhere in >there. If I remember correctly, Trent comes to the conclusion that >Nathan is the Speedfreak leader who got away. Nathan St. Denver, (Maria Alatorre was his wife), was the leader. Its in the last few pages of EE (Interlude: 2062-2069). By the way, here's an interesting tidbit for those who are interested in the Speedfreaks: >From The New York Times, Tuesday Apr. 12, 1994 (Science times, Q&A): Racing the Sun Q. What speed would you have to travel to keep the rising Sun forever on the horizon? A. Assuming a day of 25 hours and an amphibious vehicle driven westward at sea level along the 24,901 mile-long Equator, with no rest stops, traffic jams or other physical obstacles, a speed of 1,038 miles per hour [note: 1,661 kph] would do the job, said Dr. Neil D. Tyson, an astrophysicist at Princeton University and author of "Universe Down to Earth" (Columbia University Press). The local time zones would change from hour to hour, so it would always be the same time of day. The speed of Earth's rotation varies slightly with the seasons and othre factors and is gradually slowing a millisecond or so a century because of the tidal friction of the ocean against the shores, so the required speed can be ever so slightly slower or faster. --David "Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death" **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: Several thoughts -------- Hello everyone! I've _finally_ managed to borrow a copy of _EE_ long enough to read it. I feel like maybe I understand things a little better now. As a result of my reading (and re-reading the other books), I've now got a few thoughts and some questions. In _EE_ note is made (I think during a conversation between Carl and Kalharri (sp? - I don't have the book to check)) that Carl has the ability to go for extended periods (like a couple of weeks) without sleeping, without it seriously affecting him. It is hinted (or guessed) that David and Denice may also have this ability. Has any sign of this shown up in anything since? How might it play a role in events? We see a bit more about the origins/position of Ripper...that he is an associate/protege of Belinda Singer. Without this reference, it had seemed like Ripper just appeared out of nowhere as a major character in _tLD_. (OK, ok...there is a _brief_ mention of him in _tLR_ in a news story, but that's it.) Gives me a different idea of what he may stand for, now that I know. We see several key events from the viewpoint of Name Storyteller, with some interesting implications just scattered all over the place. The Spacething Library? Camber just learning his abilities to move through time? A council of Zaradin beginning the Time Wars? Etc. These items led me to wonder - just what do we know about the motivations/goals of either Storyteller or Camber Tremodian? In _EE_ Storyteller is mostly busy keeping events flowing "correctly" (at least, correctly as he sees it), so that his ancestors don't fail to produce (eventually) him. But what is he really trying to achieve? Camber doesn't really seem out to stop Storyteller's future from coming to pass (I recall some sort of conversation between Camber and a minion (Robert?) where he makes it clear that Carl's death during the roadway sequence in _EE_ would have spared trouble later and not prevented the future because David and Denice had already been born.) On the other hand, would changes prevent Camber's future (as a nightface and UEI member)? What is the connection of the nightfaces and UEI, anyway? Storyteller mentions the three greatest nightfaces as being Camber, Lady Blue, and (? - can't recall the name). There's some implication that the nightfaces worked for/were part of UEI, yet he makes a statement that Lady Blue is never mentioned in UEI headquarters. Any ideas on this one, anybody? On the subject of the ending of _tLD_ (David dying with Denice doing the deed, so to speak), during my re-reading the poem/song fragment at the opening of _tLR_ struck me as being of interest. Anyway, this probably was rather chaotic. Lots of stuff percolating in my brain after reading _EE_ for the first time. Thanks for any feedback. Windsor **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Several thoughts -------- > We see a bit more about the origins/position of Ripper...that he is >an associate/protege of Belinda Singer. Belinda Singer was was around before the Unification, and apparantly has strong feelings about the USA. (She should have gotten together with Ring, too bad :).) Ripper, although born after the Unification, also has strong feelings about it (remember, he was a member of Congress). >Without this reference, it >had seemed like Ripper just appeared out of nowhere as a major >character in _tLD_. Don't forget that he also, apparantly, marries Denice, and that was stated in EE. >The Spacething Library? Yes. The Spacethings are inorganic, space-borne entities. Plasma or energy clouds, I guess. They have been around for a very long time. For some reason, humanity goes to war with them (_Lord November: The Man-Spacething War_). >Camber just learning his abilities to move through time? Yes. Storyteller probably had the same learning experience, unless he met with the Zaradin "earlier" than Camber did. >A council of Zaradin beginning the Time Wars? The Time Wars had something to do with the Envoy, it seems. Maybe they were trying to break out of this universe? >These items led me to wonder - just what do we know about the >motivations/goals of either Storyteller or Camber Tremodian? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Both think they are in the right, and each is trying to kill the other. Both are under some constraints and have certain goals (Storyteller can't endanger Denice, because he is descended from her, while Camber doesn't want to, since they were involved closely with his ancestry; he *can*, though, he thinks, if he needs to). Camber seems to have a great deal of anger towards the universe. We don't know why, yet. We will probably find out why when the Camber novels come out. (If?) >But what is he >really trying to achieve? That is debatable. As Storyteller himself says, there is not a lot of free will available to time travellers. Some things he does because he knows he's already done them, and he *has* to do them. >Camber doesn't really seem out to stop >Storyteller's future from coming to pass In EE, Camber, the one time he shows up, is relatively young, and is just trying to (it seems) kill Storyteller. Or maybe just Carl; I'd have to reread it to make sure. > What is the connection of the nightfaces and UEI, anyway? The nightfaces at UEI work as agents of some sort. Maybe asassins. >Storyteller mentions the three greatest nightfaces as being Camber, >Lady Blue, and (? - can't recall the name). There's some implication >that the nightfaces worked for/were part of UEI, yet he makes a >statement that Lady Blue is never mentioned in UEI headquarters. Any >ideas on this one, anybody? Yes. Lady Blue created so much death and destruction that her name was stricken from the records, and nobody talks about her anymore. There is that much associated with her. Sean. **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: josh kaderlan To: continuing-time@umich.edu, sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: Several thoughts -------- On Fri, 22 Apr 1994 sef@kithrup.com wrote: > > >The Spacething Library? > > Yes. The Spacethings are inorganic, space-borne entities. Plasma or > energy clouds, I guess. They have been around for a very long time. > For some reason, humanity goes to war with them (_Lord November: > The Man-Spacething War_). > Where was this? I don't remember any previous mention of the Spacethings; I always figured the term referred to the Sleem. Not questioning your veracity, just wondering where I missed it. Josh **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Several thoughts -------- >> Yes. The Spacethings are inorganic, space-borne entities. Plasma or >> energy clouds, I guess. They have been around for a very long time. >> For some reason, humanity goes to war with them (_Lord November: >> The Man-Spacething War_). >Where was this? I don't remember any previous mention of the >Spacethings; I always figured the term referred to the Sleem. Not >questioning your veracity, just wondering where I missed it. Which part? The spacethings being inorganic, space-born entities, plasma or energy clouds I guess: I'd seen the reference in _Emerald Eyes_, and then a couple in DKM's timeline (Spacethings [7M BC], Lord November: the Man-Spacething War [2676-2682]), so I asked him about them, and he confirmed my guess: the spacethings are, well, things that live in space. They've been around for a very long time, obviously. Not as long as the Zaradin, I guess, but they're a very strange case. The Sleem are referred to seperately in the timeline; also, there is only one reference (I think) to the Sleem in all three novels, and that is _The Last Dancer_. Well, that's not true: we learn quite a bit about the Sleem in tLD, and we know that one of the Zaradin gods is a Sleem. But it's all in tLD, so I count that as a single reference :). Sean. **************** *** 04-23-94 *** **************** From: colomon To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: Several thoughts -------- windsor writes: > On the subject of the ending of _tLD_ (David dying with Denice >doing the deed, so to speak), during my re-reading the poem/song >fragment at the opening of _tLR_ struck me as being of interest. Don't remember whether I posted this before or not --- think I did. Note that, as the song is written after _tLD_, it could refer to Denice and David, but seems more likely to refer to Trent. After all, she seems to have a crush on him, and he could practically be Named "Run Away". -Sol ps For those of you who don't have it handy, the song ends "[My love] ran into another life I guess he's running still" and is by Kutura. **************** *** 04-26-94 *** **************** From: windsor d williams To: continuing-time@umich.edu (dk_moran list) Subject: Envoy of Order and the Nameless One -------- Hello again everyone. I've been continuing my re-read of the books (since I finally got to read _EE_), and I've got a few more things I'm wondering about now. When Storyteller speaks with Trent (through his avatar Neil Corona), he describes the coming and binding of the Envoy of Order. Apparently the Serathin Gods are worried that Trent may be another such Envoy (or the same one? these time wars make me wonder), and Storyteller is warning Trent that if so, he will be opposed by the Great Gods. Except for Camber, the "renegade God of Players," who apparently could be assumed to be on the side of such an Envoy. Why would Camber, alone of the ten greater gods, side with Order? Could this have something to do with his Name (the scream of pain/rage which contains a name)? And if he has a name, why is he nameless? I know, I know, he just is...but he gives his name to Denice on the black plain (or whatever you want to call it), apparently feeling she _might_ understand it. Hmmm...any ideas here, people? I'm guessing that most of this is based on Camber's story, of how he became a God in the first place. He mentions to Denice that Sedon almost took his path (presumably the path of becoming a god) but did not...what is required for a person to be able to take that path? Innate power? Position in history? Time traveling ability (innate or not...we don't really know for sure)? Anyway, just speculating and thought I'd see if anybody had some thought on this stuff. Windsor **************** *** 04-26-94 *** **************** From: marcus eubanks To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Trent and the Flame. -------- Of course, whether Trent is another envoy or not, he's at least somewhat sensitive to the Flame. Remember the scene on the roof-top with Jimmy and Denise, where Denise speaks of *doing* something and then loses her temper. At some point in her monologue, Trent observes that she seems to be covered in sheets of blue flame. So not only is Trent able to see this, but Denise is already able to call the Flame to some extent. Marcus Eubanks (n3etr) Temple Med '96 Philadelphia, PA USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Which form do you fill out when a dead terrorist brings a hand-cuffed, SLUDding organophosphate victim in off the street?" **************** *** 04-26-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: TLR, TLD and information -------- Case A: Sieur' Blain knows used Complex 8-A in the Peaceforcer Heaven. Yet the journalists, till Trent intervenes, do not. We could make a point that Blain has access to uncommon sources of information. If so, why give the info to the unknown Thomas Vera? This raises further questions on whether the PKF is full of information holes or impermeable as some pretend. Case B: Everyone knows that Trent has walked through a wall after the fact. This obviously signifies that the PKF is full of holes. What interest would they have in glorifying, even mythifying, their number 1 enemy? Issueing an APB saying: suspect can walk through walls:). Case C: Trent explains to Corona that Eddore does not want the PKF/Space Force on the halfway relay station because this will tip the Rebs and the Claw off. This gives more credibility to the thesis that the PKF is full of holes. Case D: Yet Vance is confident that only the PKF will know of Mirabeau's crimes by the end of TLD. Wishful thinking? Is Vance that naive? **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-26-94 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: TLR, TLD and information Reply-To: Mike Long Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA X-Attribution: MWL -------- >Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 14:00:41 -0400 (EDT) >From: "J.C. DuVal" >Case D: Yet Vance is confident that only the PKF will know of Mirabeau's >crimes by the end of TLD. Wishful thinking? Is Vance that naive? Did any PKF know of Mirabeau's crimes who were not Elite? (I can't remember, time to reread! :-) The regular PKF may be full of holes, but the Elite should be able to keep a secret better. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer voice: (617)461-4030 Analog Devices, SPD Division FAX: (617)461-3010 Norwood, MA 02062 USA assert(*this!=opinionof(Analog)); **************** *** 04-27-94 *** **************** From: rsu@netcom.com (rodrick su) To: continuing-time@umich.edu, "j.c. duval" Subject: Re: TLR, TLD and information -------- On Apr 26, 2:00pm, "J.C. DuVal" wrote: } Case A: Sieur' Blain knows used Complex 8-A in the Peaceforcer Heaven. Yet } the journalists, till Trent intervenes, do not. We could make a point } that Blain has access to uncommon sources of information. If so, why give } the info to the unknown Thomas Vera? This raises further questions on } whether the PKF is full of information holes or impermeable as some pretend. Blain must have known about the Peaceforcer Heaven incident. The PKF are cracking down on the compond rather hard because of it. And Blain does not deal in legal substances. -- [ Rodrick Su [ If at first you don't succeed, well, so much for ] [----------------------[ skydiving. [ ``Games of the Hangman'' ] [ rsu@netcom.com ]------------------------[ Victor O'Reilly ] **************** *** 04-27-94 *** **************** From: "j.c. duval" To: continuing-time@umich.edu, rodrick su Subject: Re: TLR, TLD and information -------- On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, Rodrick Su wrote: > On Apr 26, 2:00pm, "J.C. DuVal" wrote: > } Case A: Sieur' Blain knows used Complex 8-A in the Peaceforcer Heaven. Yet > } the journalists, till Trent intervenes, do not. We could make a point > } that Blain has access to uncommon sources of information. If so, why give > } the info to the unknown Thomas Vera? This raises further questions on > } whether the PKF is full of information holes or impermeable as some pretend. > > > Blain must have known about the Peaceforcer Heaven incident. The > PKF are cracking down on the compond rather hard because of it. > And Blain does not deal in legal substances. > He would know the PKF were cracking down on it, but would he know why? The point that I am making is that while Trent's journey through Peaceforcer Heaven, the mayor Noah knows about it, must have been pretty much public knowledge, his use of Fadeaway was not, at least till the news conference. **************************************************************************** |J.C. DuVal | M.A. English | University of Montreal *Brand new sig!* | |duvaljc@tornade.ere.umontreal.ca | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |In the forties, the Nazis were evil; | |In the fifties, the commies were evil; | |In the sixties, the establishment was evil; | |In the seventies, disco was evil; | |In the eigthies, the Soviet Empire was evil; | |In the nineties, there are no more evils, only victims. | |A society unable to recognize evils has deep problems. | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, | |and the Data is Life.- The Player's Litany. | **************************************************************************** **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: joseph martin scarr To: conttime Subject: Walking through walls... -------- I'm sure you all remember the scene where Trent walks through the wall of the Briefing Room on Luna. Phenomenal. Fantastic. Incredible. A fantastic scene -- well-executed. It had excellent reactions by the witnessing Peaceforcers -- not to mention a momentous description of the whole scene. And just enough clues to figure out how Trent walked through that wall in the Briefing Room on Luna. Any guesses? Touched by the Flame? Cut a hole in the wall and seamlessly reconstructed it? Or is Trent really a God/Player of supernatural ability? For the sake of maintaining the mysterium and legendary nature of this moment, I will warn you that what you will find after scrolling down a ways (to protect the 'ignorance is bliss' crowd) is a theory on how it all happened. You can choose not to read it and wait until Moran writes some book in the future where Vance is "questioned by his superiors [and] could not say exactly where the thought had come from." (all cites are from Daniel Keys Moran's The Long Run, Bantam Spectra 1989) which I hope Moran does because I'd like to know if I am right... We begin on page 320 where we are introduced to the Briefing Room. It is described as having a long oval table make of something resembling beechwood. It is at this point that Trent is being interrogated as Benny Gutierrez by a panel of PKF. I establish this point to assert that this is the same briefing room he walks through later. On page 325 Melissa DuBois escorts Trent to the same briefing room for further questioning. This room is cited as the same one where Trent had undergone the previous questioning. This is where the critical evidence lies for dispelling the belief that anything supernatural happened when Trent appeared to walk through the wall. Second paragraph: "It was completely dark except for the briefing room's holo projectors; ... The lasers were buried in the wall just above the point where the walls met the floor." Now, on pages 358-359 we encounter the walking-through-walls scene. "The wide double doors curled quietly aside. The lights inside were glaring, the glowpaint turned high. "Trent stood inside, on the other side of the long oval conference table, watching as the doors opened. "...without saying a word, and then simply nodded once, smiled, and turned away from Vance, turned his back on the Peaceforcers and their weapons and walked straight into the wall. "And through it. "The moment simply hung there. "And hung. Trent used the holo projectors to simulate his being there. Even on page 358 when Vance asks one of the Elite in the area if he observed Trent entering the room, the Elite responds: "We saw him through the doorway before he closed it." Note that the Elite did not respond: "Yes, we saw him _go in_" as Vance specifically asks. The Elite's response means he did not see Trent enter the briefing room, but only saw his appearance inside it. Vance should have picked this up. Oh well. You have to tell a good story. The good thing about Moran is that he doesn't cop out. So much for that. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: mike long To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls... Reply-To: Mike Long Organization: Analog Devices Inc, Norwood MA, USA X-Attribution: MWL -------- >Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 10:58:19 -0700 (PDT) >From: Joseph Martin Scarr >I'm sure you all remember the scene where Trent walks through the wall of >the Briefing Room on Luna. Phenomenal. Fantastic. Incredible. >Any guesses? Touched by the Flame? Cut a hole in the wall and >seamlessly reconstructed it? Or is Trent really a God/Player of >supernatural ability? >For the sake of maintaining the mysterium and legendary nature of this >moment, I will warn you that what you will find after scrolling down a >ways (to protect the 'ignorance is bliss' crowd) is a theory on how it >all happened. I'll say HERE THERE BE SPOILERS, although I'm sure all of your have read TLR many times. I think your theory is correct in every way but one: I think Ralf was the one who set up the projectors, not Trent. Anything Trent had put into the system probably would have been hosed when the LINK went down. When did he have the time to set it up? Ralf, on the other hand, is in full control of all of the computers in the Farside base during Trent's escape. Setting up the holo would have been a trivial task for him. -- Mike Long Mike.Long@Analog.com VLSI Design Engineer Analog Devices, SPD Division Norwood, MA 02062 USA assert(*this!=opinionof(Analog)); **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: wesley mcdermott To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls... -------- Ralf for sure, since there is also the strong implication that Trent didn't know (at first) why the guards had left the airlock posts; Trent is sufficiently smart that had he set up a holograph he would have thought through the implications... (: W. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls... *SPOILERS*!!!! -------- This is yet another thing I mentioned to dkm, back when I was exchanging email with him. His response to my pointing out the theory that Ralf operated the holoprojectors was something like Yes, Vance figures that out and tells Trent just before he kills him. Moran *did not say* that this was true. He also implied that *Trent* never said what happened! It is deliberately ambiguous. Odds are that it was Ralf, but... in that universe, you don't take *anything* at face value. Sean. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: "mark l. williamson" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Walking thru walls -------- >>In every case that I found, Trent never acknowledges >>it, but usually deflected the conversation to some other topic. >However, when he finds out that Sedon has a higher price on his head than >Trent does, he says, "But I walked through a wall!" (And then the singer >says "But you said you didn't do that", I think, but I couldn't find it >in tLD so I'm not sure exactly what happens :).) >Sean. tLD page 163. Actually, she was responding to Trent when he said he had killed Peaceforcers Elite and blew up half of Peaceforcer Heaven. But right after that he goes on to claim that he did walk through a wall. However, Trent DOES have a reputation as a big time liar. I imagine that after a few years of getting asked about it, he decided to start taking credit (at least occasionally) for what was probably Ralfs work. -- Mark mlw@engr.latech.edu **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- moran commented on this some time ago...here's the msg: --- Article 12350 of rec.arts.sf.written: Path: s5!uunet!usc!cheshire.oxy.edu!mcws!techsys!pain!d_moran From: d_moran@pain.la.ca.us (Daniel Keys Moran) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Continuing Time Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 17:59:46 PDT Organization: Public Access Info Network (818/776-1447) Lines: 30 Simon Tong (stong@ariel) mentioned that people were arguing about this over here -- this being the damn wall again. Relax, okay? Think whatever you like about it. David Gerrold thought that Trent had walked through the wall (and was pissed that I hadn't set up Trent's ability to do so more thoroughly); Amy Stout, my former editor at Bantam who I love and who is one of the very nicest people I've ever met, decided instantly upon reading the mss. that Trent had never walked through the wall, that it was a holograph set up by Ralf the Wise and Powerful. All I'm really inclined to say about it is, I ain't saying. I will say that one argument I've been told about is incorrect. Trent did not cut through the wall with an emblade, and then display a holof of the wall over the hole in the wall. The wall was solid. So ... either Trent walked through the wall, or Ralf animated a holo of him walking through the wall. It's not an accident, BTW, that all that setup regarding the holo theory is there. By the time of the AI War, Mohammed Vance has figured out that it was just a holo, and tells Trent so just before killing him. Whether that's a correct deduction or not, I ain't saying. Was told today by Betsy Mitchell at Bantam that "The Last Dancer" is scheduled for Fall '93. I wish it could be sooner, but it's out of my hands. However, next books in the series should come pretty quick on its heels. We now return you to your regularly scheduled arguing.... "There are no longer "dancers," the possessed. The cleavage of men into actors and spectators is the central fact of our times. We are obsessed with heroes who live for us and whom we punish . . . We have metapmorphised from a mad body dancing on hillsides to a pair of eyes staring in the dark." -- Jim Morrison, quoted in "The Last Dancer." **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- >In every case that I found, Trent never acknowledges >it, but usually deflected the conversation to some other topic. However, when he finds out that Sedon has a higher price on his head than Trent does, he says, "But I walked through a wall!" (And then the singer says "But you said you didn't do that", I think, but I couldn't find it in tLD so I'm not sure exactly what happens :).) Sean. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: "jim l. sather" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Walking through walls -------- In this scene Trent is also described as limping before and after the room, but not while he is purportedly in it. I consider this another hint... I also looked thru TLD once to find all the places I could where people meet Trent and say, "Did you really walk thru a wall?..." or something to that effect. In every case that I found, Trent never acknowledges it, but usually deflected the conversation to some other topic. So I don't know of any case where Trent himself claims to have walked thru the wall. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: russell katz To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: New Person -------- I have been contacted by a Moran reader that wants to join this list. I have forgotten how to suscribe..... How do you suscribe to this list again? Russell Katz ************************************************************************* * The Crystal Wind is the Storm, * Daniel K. Moran: * Russell Katz * * and The Storm is Data, * "Emerald Eyes" * katzr@ucs.orst.edu* * and the Data is Life. * and * * * -The Player's Litany * "The Long Run" * * ************************************************************************* **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: mace@lum.esd.sgi.com (rob mace) To: joseph martin scarr , conttime Subject: Re: Walking through walls... -------- > On page 325 Melissa DuBois escorts Trent to the same briefing room for > further questioning. > > ... > > Second paragraph: > > "It was completely dark except for the briefing room's holo > projectors; ... The lasers were buried in the wall just above the point > where the walls met the floor." > > > Now, on pages 358-359 we encounter the walking-through-walls scene. > > "The wide double doors curled quietly aside. The lights inside > were glaring, the glowpaint turned high. > "Trent stood inside, on the other side of the long oval > conference table, watching as the doors opened. > "...without saying a word, and then simply nodded once, smiled, > and turned away from Vance, turned his back on the Peaceforcers and their > weapons and walked straight into the wall. > "And through it. > "The moment simply hung there. > "And hung. > > > Trent used the holo projectors to simulate his being there. As others have pointed out it is more likely that Ralf was the one to use the holo projectors. I don't have the exact quotes/page numbers, but here is the gist. Shortly before this scene we find out that Ralf is pondering how too help Trent escape. So we know that Ralf is looking for a way to help and we also know that Ralf is in control of the complex's systems which should give him control of the holo projectors. Next when Trent reaches the air lock he is supprised to find it unguarded. He then remembers the shout of "We got him". I don't think he knew that he had just walked through a wall. Now for the problem I see with the theory. I included your two quotes because there is a fundamental difference in them. "It was completely dark except for..." and "The lights inside were glaring, the glowpaint turned high." Do the holo projectors in Moran's universe of this time work well in full light. And if so do they work well enough to fool a bunch of elites, with their special vision. And if they work well in full light why are the lights off in the first scene. I have not gone and checked to see what the state of the room lights are in other scenes with holo's. If you know of any please point them out. I still wonder if the holo explanation is red herring. Rob Mace **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: "jim l. sather" To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: RE: Walking thru walls -------- ---------- | From: "Mark L. Williamson" | | >>In every case that I found, Trent never acknowledges | >>it, but usually deflected the conversation to some other topic. | | >However, when he finds out that Sedon has a higher price on his head than | >Trent does, he says, "But I walked through a wall!" (And then the singer | >says "But you said you didn't do that", I think, but I couldn't find it | >in tLD so I'm not sure exactly what happens :).) | | >Sean. | | tLD page 163. Actually, she was responding to Trent when he said he had | killed Peaceforcers Elite and blew up half of Peaceforcer Heaven. But | right after that he goes on to claim that he did walk through a wall. | However, Trent DOES have a reputation as a big time liar. I imagine that | after a few years of getting asked about it, he decided to start taking | credit (at least occasionally) for what was probably Ralfs work. | | -- | Mark | mlw@engr.latech.edu My take on this is that he's reacting more to the public image, and a feeling of what price somebody with his reputation (killed elites, walked thru a wall, etc) should command, even though he knows he didn't do half of the things he's reputed to have done. Jim **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: william lewis To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- > "But I walked through a wall!" I agree with . Trent is referring to his reputation, which need have little to do with his actual history. He is miffed that this Sedon character is demanding a higher bounty than he is. I seem to remember a scene early in tLR, or perhaps EE, in which Trent discovers that he's become well known and loved at the local law enforcement office (I forget which branch), and is *quite* pleased, almost gleeful, that he's being noticed. Later he reacts similarly to the appellation "Uncatchable". And he loves to show off: see the press conference on Luna. He's made a name for himself, and doesn't like being upstaged. For what it's worth, BTW, my immediate assumption upon reading tLR the first time was that the walking-though-walls was done with a holo. Not only did Moran carefully introduce the necessary equipment previously, but the scene isn't described in anything like the amount of detail that Trent's other exploits are. Compare it with his escape through the floor of his hospital room, the careful preparation he made for his escape through the accelerator, and so forth. I had originally thought that Trent had controlled it, but it makes more sense for it to have been Ralf, as others here have pointed out. As for the glowpaint being turned up in the final scene: I think this has less to do with whether DKM's holos work better in bright or dim light, and more to do with the fact that the projectors were originally described as glowing visibly in the dimly lit room earlier in the book. The light from the glowpaint might have swamped any stray emissions from the projectors, even from Elite eyes. All of the above is, of course, my opinion. Wim. **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: mkr@fid.morgan.com (mike rosenberg) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- well moran says that the wall was solid. so either trent walked through the wall or ralf animated trent walking through the wall (that is, trent was never in the room and everyone saw a holo of trent walking through the wall; note that in the scene, trent does not speak). i think trent walked through the wall. mike by the way, is there any hope at all that moran is at least getting copies of the traffic in this list? **************** *** 04-30-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Walking through walls -------- Most of the theories about this scene seem to revolve around Ralf (or perhaps Trent himself) hacking the holoprojectors to show an image of himself walking through the wall. Just to bring up the question: Wouldn't people familiar with holograms (such as all the Peaceforcers Elite present in the room) be able to tell the difference between a hologram and a real image? Perhaps that's what gave the story such force - they *knew* that what they were seeing had not been faked. As for why Vance in the future gives fakery as the explanation he has worked out for himself - remember, he injured himself severely shortly before he sees the extraordinary event. Perhaps this, combined with the fact that so much time has passed, is what allows him, of all who were present, to come to this conclusion. Just a theory, o'course. Now, as to what *really* happened - Here's another theory: We know that there are time travelers who are very interested in the fate of the Castanaveras family. Perhaps it was such a one who set up the whole thing, using technology sufficiently advanced as to resemble magic. Come to think of it, maybe *Trent* learns to travel in time! Pulling that stunt off is something he would have to do anyway, and I'm sure he'd enjoy it immensely. --David "No, wait! Maybe he had a secret accomplice... :-) **************** *** 05-13-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Silly Nitpicking -------- Does anyone else's copy of "The Last Dancer" have a typo, where it says "Yu:nited Er Intelijens"? Obviously, its supposed to be a theta, not a psi. So who messed up? (pg 286) Can anyone place "The King of Corona"? It sounds familiar.I doubt that its any connection to Neil Corona - it takes place about two hundred years after his time (I may be reading too much into the brief story which mentions him)(pg374) Why didn't Tommy Ho/Richard Yo have his legs regenned - when he had 30 years to do it? Is the power of the House of November the ability to step outside oneself and manipulate others' minds/memory(as opposed to simple telepathy)? Is Daniel a relation of Denice? (If he's her son - why is he in Public Labor)? When does Denice marry Douglas Ripper? --David **************** *** 05-13-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: Silly Nitpicking -------- >Does anyone else's copy of "The Last Dancer" have a typo, where it says >"Yu:nited Er Intelijens"? Obviously, its supposed to be a theta, >not a psi. So who messed up? (pg 286) I hadn't noticed. I don't read greek :). I figured what it was supposed to sound like, and just mentally corrected it. (Doncha just love SECDED?) >Can anyone place "The King of Corona"? It sounds familiar.I doubt that its >any connection to Neil Corona - it takes place about two hundred >years after his time (I may be reading too much into the brief story >which mentions him)(pg374) You may not be reading too much into him. Corona was a *legend* at one point, and he went back to Earth. It's quite possible that he participates in the upcoming revolution, and survives. And since interstellar travel is coming up soon, maybe, shomehow, he or a descendant gets a regency. (I wouldn't expect it of him, to be honest, given that he seems to be a rather loyal American.) >Why didn't Tommy Ho/Richard Yo have his legs regenned - when he had >30 years to do it? Not in his belief system? >Is the power of the House of November the ability to step outside oneself >and manipulate others' minds/memory(as opposed to simple telepathy)? I don't think so. What Denice does seems to be similar to what Carl had done at times, although not as powerful. But she believes herself to be more powerful than Carl was, and Carl was the most powerful telepath. Maybe the Novembers don't find themselves trying to merge into a group mind, the way the Castanaveras did. >Is Daniel a relation of Denice? (If he's her son - why is he in Public >Labor)? Daniel is Denice's son. As to why he's in Public Labor -- who knows? Maybe they get seperated, or maybe Denice dies in the revolution or the War Against the Sleem shortly thereafter. >When does Denice marry Douglas Ripper? Sometime before Daniel is born, I guess :). My guess would actually be either just before or after Denice and Douglas team up with Trent ("The Telepath, the Politician, and the Thief"). Sean. **************** *** 05-17-94 *** **************** From: "r. mccauley" To: continuing time mailing list Subject: Screenplay Info -------- Forgive me if this has been asked recently; I just joined the list a couple of weeks ago. Someone sent me a copy of the text file Moran wrote that includes the time line (thanks Erich!) and in it, Moran mentions that he is circulating a screenplay for *The Long Run* around Hollywood. He goes on to say that the screenplay is available for $80 ($40 of which goes to charity - either Rebuild L.A. or AIDS Project L.A., and the other $40 covers copying, handling and mailing costs) from his Van Nuys P.O. Box. My questions are: * Is this offer still valid? * Is the P.O. Box address still good? * Has anyone else gotten a copy? How was it? * Does anyone have a more current e-address for Moran than the dmoran@batpad.lgb.us.ca address? I'm really eager to get a copy of this screenplay. *The Ring* was just an adapted screenplay, and I liked it almost as much as his Continuing Time stuff. If anyone can help me this (and if it isn't terribly old news) I'll report back on the screenplay. Thanx! R. McCauley **************** *** 05-18-94 *** **************** From: sef@kithrup.com To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: while I was in the bookstore today -------- someone called and started asking about DKM books. The owner mentioned that the publisher seems to *never* reprint out-of-print books (something I hadn't known, so it seems grim :(). On my advice, she told the guy to try calling Dark Carnival in Berkeley to get a copy of _The Ring_. She doesn't know when his next book may be coming out, though :(. Sean. **************** *** 05-18-94 *** **************** From: joshua kronengold To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: while I was in the bookstore today -------- Talked to a contact at Bantam-Spectra (an editor). She says that they are considering reprinting the early books, contingent on the sales of the new one that going to be printed "soon." Quoted the chances at about 50-50. So it isn't as bleak as all that, especially if everyone buys the new one. --- Joshua Kronengold -- mneme@dorsai.dorsai.org Sig file unde **************** *** 05-18-94 *** **************** From: andrew mccoll To: continuing-time@umich.edu, joshua kronengold Subject: Re: while I was in the bookstore today -------- On Wed, 18 May 1994, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Talked to a contact at Bantam-Spectra (an editor). She says that they > are considering reprinting the early books, contingent on the sales of > the new one that going to be printed "soon." Quoted the chances at > about 50-50. How bout an address for this editor we could arrange a mail in. American companies are supposed to be very concerned about consumer pressure. Skippy PS an email address would be even better :> skippy@lethe.uwa.edu.au University of Western Australia "That which does not kill us Perth, Western Australia Must have missed." **************** *** 05-18-94 *** **************** From: joshua kronengold To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Re: while I was in the bookstore today -------- Don't know if she'd like that, but I'll talk to her (don't know if she's on the net; know here through a BBS). --- Joshua Kronengold -- mneme@dorsai.dorsai.org Sig file unde **************** *** 06-01-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: From the beginning of _The Armageddon Blues_ -------- What follows is not accurate. It is not truth. It is ... elegant. Compare that with Storyteller's assertion that Truth is for Historians (and note that we do have a Name Historian [whatever *that* means], and Trent talks to him), and that his lot is better, for he is a Storyteller. Coincidence? Sean. **************** *** 06-02-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: _The Armageddon Blues_ -------- I just finished rereading it. Probably the fifth or sixth time I've done so. Wow. Damn it, Moran is *GOOD*. Sean. **************** *** 06-02-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Georges Mordeaux and the Envoy -------- Georges is described as the Enemy of Entropy. The Zaradin are Chaos, and on the entropy side of the Great Wheel of Existance. The Chained One (aka the Envoy) is on the opposite side. Is Georges another Envoy? Will he figure in the unchaining of the Chained One? (Okay, so it's not really related to the Continuing Time... :)) Sean. **************** *** 06-14-94 *** **************** From: mfitz@bdmserver.mcl.bdm.com (mike fitz) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Emerald Eyes and The Long Run -------- I went looking for The Armageddon Blues this weekend and came away with copies of Emerald Eyes and The Long Run (both of which I already have). I'm offering them to anyone who wants them. I would prefer to trade for The Armageddon Blues. E-Mail me if you're interested. Mike **************** *** 06-14-94 *** **************** From: dubois@hydrogen.geoworks.com (paul dubois) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Emerald Eyes and The Long Run -------- Curiously enough, I went browsing the used-books section this weekend and noticed a copy of The Long Run at Black Oak Books in Berkeley (Shattuck and... Vine?). Apologies for the wide distribution :) >>>>> Mike Fitz writes: > I went looking for The Armageddon Blues this weekend and came away with > copies of Emerald Eyes and The Long Run. **************** *** 06-17-94 *** **************** From: ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (maureen s. obrien) To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: Moran's preoccupations Reply-To: ap007@Freenet.HSC.Colorado.EDU -------- Have you noticed that Moran consistently fixes on certain features for metaphors and accessories in his stories? 1) Eyes. In AB, the ken Selvren's silver eyes can detect radia- tion, see smaller segments of time, and expand their pupils immensely in size (& maybe see IR, but I was never sure). In the Continuing Time, there are the green eyes of the Castana- veras telepaths (EE, of course) which can see IR, the slitted cat's eyes of the de Nostri, no-pupil black Kabhyr eyes, con- tacts and makeup keys to change eye color, Trent's tragically normal blue eyes, and even the Orbital Eyes of the DoD in the past in EE. Somebody likes eyes. 2) The long run. Of course, there's Trent's, and the many Long Runs, including the last one, organized by the Speedfreaks. But in AB, on p.14, Jalian "turned & began the long run back to the Clan House" to report a building on the Big Road, & on p. 45, she "slowly, falteringly, began the long run that would take her to its end." (The -entropy timeline, that is.) Moran also is interested in the French, music, hackers\nets\AIs, and nukes...and probably a few things I haven't noticed yet. What do you think it all means, she said, trying to sound like an English teacher. -- Maureen S. O'Brien ap007@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu Marta Fitzgerald and Rush Limbaugh --- She flamed her way into his heart! **************** *** 06-28-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Corona, King of -------- Just thought I'd mention that I found the reference I was looking for a while back. The words "King of Corona" kept running through my head to tune of a song fragment. I finally found l book of lyrics by Paul Simon, and there it was, part of the song "Me and Julio down by the Schoolyard": "...goodbye Rosie, the Queen of Corona...". Anyone know what that means? The only other reference to 'Corona' as a proper name was in a SF story of the same name by Samuel Delany. -- David S. **************** *** 06-28-94 *** **************** From: david silberstein To: "d. k. moran list" Subject: Corona, King of -------- Just thought I'd mention that I found the reference I was looking for a while back. The words "King of Corona" kept running through my head to tune of a song fragment. I finally found l book of lyrics by Paul Simon, and there it was, part of the song "Me and Julio down by the Schoolyard": "...goodbye Rosie, the Queen of Corona...". Anyone know what that means? The only other reference to 'Corona' as a proper name was in a SF story of the same name by Samuel Delany. -- David S. **************** *** 06-30-94 *** **************** From: sean eric fagan To: continuing-time@umich.edu Subject: I just finished _The Long Run_ again -------- Damn, DKM can write well. Okay, does anybody have bantam's phone number? I wanna call and see if I can find out when another book is coming out. Sean. **************** *** 07-07-94 *** **************** From: kestrel To: continuing-time@umich.edu (continuing time mailing list) Subject: Detailed Timeline -------- I am interested in where I can obtain a detailed timeline covering the events in Emerald Eyes, The Long Run, and The Last Dancer (only the parts dealing with 'modern' times - not parts in the far past or future). If anyone could tell me where I could obtain such a document, I would be grateful. Casey McGirt -- --